The Worth of Renly Baratheon

[Paladin of Ice]

In peacetime Renly might have made a halfway decent ruler, as he seems to have had decent political instincts, although at the same time he was apparently blissfully ignorant of some things that were pretty well known around court, like Jaime and Cersei's involvement.

As a ruler, he seems likely to have continued impoverishing the realm, he also seems like he would be fairly weak willed, in th sense of being undisciplined, inclined to go along with whatever the majority of his advisers say, (judging from his war council about how to deal with Stannis), and inclined to always believe that things would work out in the best way possible for him rather than taking an objective look at situations. (Remember when he thought Stannis would bend the knee to him?)

As an army commander/in a time of war, he would have been a disaster. His decisions and tactics, both in his slowness to attack King's Landing and how he reacted to Stannis' threat mostly lacked any kind of sense. (In the case of Stannis, remember that he rushed forward with all his cavalry, leaving both his infantry and supplies behind, it's even mentioned that he men he took to face Stannis arrived with no more than a few days worth of food to them. Imagine if some circumstance had mandated taking more than a few days, or if they'd been unable to scavenge for food around).

In peace time, his charisma, popular support, and fair amount of political ability would have covered for a lot of things. (Although as a sign of his ignorance of how to use politics and causes, he could have proclaimed Stannis' letter about Joffrey and the rest of Cersei's children being the product of incest true, even if he didn't believe it, and used it as a perfectly good justification to seize the Iron Throne). In any other time than one of plenty and relative calm, Renly would have run into problems. Hopefully he would have had the right people around him.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Paladin of Ice' post='1277694' date='Mar 18 2008, 11.17']In peacetime Renly might have made a halfway decent ruler, as he seems to have had decent political instincts, although at the same time he was apparently blissfully ignorant of some things that were pretty well known around court, like Jaime and Cersei's involvement.[/quote]
Pretty well known?

The people who appear to have known were Varys, Petyr, Stannis and Jon. Jon knew explicitly because Stannis told him, and Eddard figured out because Varys was actively dropping hints.

So that leaves Varys, Petyr and Stannis.

Did Stannis find out independently?

Can you really fault Renly for not being a match to Varys and Petyr? Even if Stannis WAS independent, his hostility and suspiciousness was not something quite shared by Renly.

[hobomagic]

[quote name='Paladin of Ice' post='1277694' date='Mar 18 2008, 04.17']In peacetime Renly might have made a halfway decent ruler, as he seems to have had decent political instincts, although at the same time he was apparently blissfully ignorant of some things that were pretty well known around court, like Jaime and Cersei's involvement.

As a ruler, he seems likely to have continued impoverishing the realm, he also seems like he would be fairly weak willed, in th sense of being undisciplined, inclined to go along with whatever the majority of his advisers say, (judging from his war council about how to deal with Stannis), and inclined to always believe that things would work out in the best way possible for him rather than taking an objective look at situations. (Remember when he thought Stannis would bend the knee to him?)

As an army commander/in a time of war, he would have been a disaster. His decisions and tactics, both in his slowness to attack King's Landing and how he reacted to Stannis' threat mostly lacked any kind of sense. (In the case of Stannis, remember that he rushed forward with all his cavalry, leaving both his infantry and supplies behind, it's even mentioned that he men he took to face Stannis arrived with no more than a few days worth of food to them. Imagine if some circumstance had mandated taking more than a few days, or if they'd been unable to scavenge for food around).

In peace time, his charisma, popular support, and fair amount of political ability would have covered for a lot of things. (Although as a sign of his ignorance of how to use politics and causes, he could have proclaimed Stannis' letter about Joffrey and the rest of Cersei's children being the product of incest true, even if he didn't believe it, and used it as a perfectly good justification to seize the Iron Throne). In any other time than one of plenty and relative calm, Renly would have run into problems. Hopefully he would have had the right people around him.[/quote]


Alternatively, Renly could have found being a peacetime king fun, for a few yaers at least, then descended into debauchery like Robert did. Wartime kinging would at least be excitied and keep him from being distracted by the pleasures at had. I truly believe that had Robert's reign been harder, he would have made a much better king. He would have spent more time away from Cersi, more time warring, and might even have led him to get rid of Aryn Sooner. Robert Rreally was the true steal, and like steel he wnet to rust for lack of use.

Like I said before, the truth is we don't know enough about renley and his relationships with Loras and Margery to really judge. If he did sleep with margery, it speaks well of his ability to, parden the pun, bone up and do what needs to be done. If he didn't then the Margery Loras Renly traingle gets a whole lot more interesting.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Paladin of Ice' post='1277694' date='Mar 18 2008, 05.17']As an army commander/in a time of war, he would have been a disaster. His decisions and tactics, both in his slowness to attack King's Landing and how he reacted to Stannis' threat mostly lacked any kind of sense. (In the case of Stannis, remember that he rushed forward with all his cavalry, leaving both his infantry and supplies behind, it's even mentioned that he men he took to face Stannis arrived with no more than a few days worth of food to them. Imagine if some circumstance had mandated taking more than a few days, or if they'd been unable to scavenge for food around).[/quote]
Yeah. I think this explains much of Tywin and Tyrion's lack of fear for him. A clever adversary ought to be able to take advantage of newby mistakes and lay traps for him.

[Paladin of Ice]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1277702' date='Mar 18 2008, 05.36']Pretty well known?

The people who appear to have known were Varys, Petyr, Stannis and Jon. Jon knew explicitly because Stannis told him, and Eddard figured out because Varys was actively dropping hints.

So that leaves Varys, Petyr and Stannis.

Did Stannis find out independently?

Can you really fault Renly for not being a match to Varys and Petyr? Even if Stannis WAS independent, his hostility and suspiciousness was not something quite shared by Renly.[/quote]

Fair enough point, I may have gone a bit too far with that one. I was just thinking about how Stannis and Jon Arryn knew and how Olenna Tyrell seemed to grasp things right away. (When she practically first set foot in the city, her words to Sansa were "Tell me about this Baratheon boy who looks so very Lannister", which I always took as a major hint that she knew the truth and had more reason to believe than just what was in Stannis' letter).

There's certainly no shame to not being on the same level as Littlefinger, Tyrion, Varys, and the Queen of Thorns, but it still says that Renly would have been, at best, in the B-league as far as political machinations go. And I do really wonder how the hell Stannis found out, if it was just suspicious nature or maybe even some early help from Mel. (Although if Stannis noticed the truth on his own, what does it say for Renly that he can't out think a dull, straightforward, non-political person like Stannis?)

[Jaak]

[quote name='Paladin of Ice' post='1279658' date='Mar 19 2008, 15.19']Fair enough point, I may have gone a bit too far with that one. I was just thinking about how Stannis and Jon Arryn knew and how Olenna Tyrell seemed to grasp things right away. (When she practically first set foot in the city, her words to Sansa were "Tell me about this Baratheon boy who looks so very Lannister", which I always took as a major hint that she knew the truth and had more reason to believe than just what was in Stannis' letter).[/quote]

Not that I see this. The contents of Stannis´ letters were well known in Reach - Renly told that he and his leading Reach supporters read it and laughed it off. Ditto about Kevan.

Did Tyrion know the contents of Stannis´ accusation before Cersei stammered the reference to it?

Jon knew because, and only because, Stannis told him directly. Jon did not figure it out himself.

[GSP]

I don't know, just because Stannis may be 'dull' or 'unpolitical' doesnt mean he's braindead. I wouldn't mistake Stannis' lack of zazz for him being stupid. He seems pretty sharp. Just because he figured out something and Renly did not, doesn't mean Renly is legendarily thick in the head.

I think Stannis is one of the more intelligent players in the book, and his restless cycnicism gives him insight into the motivations of other characters that more amiable characters remain oblivious to. It is no mischance that he is one of the few to see the truth in the Cercei/Jaime relationship.

[snake]

In AGoT when Tywin, Kevan and the Imp are thinking about their next move Tywin seems totally unconcerned when he learns of Renly's crowning. This is after the Kingslayer has been defeated and Riverrun liberated. Even in that state he does not fear the wrath of Renly with his Stormlords and Reachlords.

Also, recall when Renly is about to fight Stannis. First he leaves his supply lines behind and must fight or starve. Then he gives the Van to Ser Loras instead of Lord Tarly. He then dismisses anothers warning that they would be charging into a blinding sun. His reason? He doesn't want it to be known he won the battle unchivalrously.

Renly had capable and experienced commanders but he prefered to listen to the young, inexperienced ones.

Renly's victory was far from certain and IMHO he would have never taken KingsLanding if he had lived.

[Lord Varys]

On Stannis:

There had been speculation that Littlefinger dropped hints to Stannis leading to his learning of Cersei's and Jaime's incest. I doubt that, as we ca be quite sure that Stannis did not interact more than he must as member of the Small Council with the likes of Varys and Littlefinger.

But certainly the Baratheon tragedy might have been avoided if Stannis would have confided Renly after Jon Arryn's death. Knowing that Joffrey was not Robert's son might have motivated ambitious Renly to support Stannis if he had made him his heir.
As long as Robert lived Renly, Loras and the Tyrells plotted to make Margaery Robert's queen, which would have made Margaery's son the next king. So Renly only chose to make himself King after his brother died.

[Maia]

Well, I would like to precede my discourse with the admission that IMHO Robert never was "true steel". He was a good fighter and an inspirational leader in a war, but that's all. Remember what Jorah Mormont thought about Robert's strategical abilities. And of course, although Robert was of age and Lord of SE he was still hanging out in the Vale before the war instead of ruling his lordship. He was disinclined to do his duty as a ruler from the get go, it wasn't something brought about by Cersei. It was only Robert's immense charisma when he was a young man that prevented people from seeing his many weaknesses.

[quote name='Paladin of Ice' post='1277694' date='Mar 18 2008, 04.17']In peacetime Renly might have made a halfway decent ruler, as he seems to have had decent political instincts, although at the same time he was apparently blissfully ignorant of some things that were pretty well known around court, like Jaime and Cersei's involvement.[/quote]

It is fairly clear that nobody knew about it at court apart from Varys, LF (both of whom had armies of spies and very suspicious minds) and Pycelle who was guessing on the basis of his rare medical knowledge. Stannis only knew because LF made a crumb trail for him, IMHO, like he later did with Ned and the murder of Jon Arryn clinched it for him - as LF intended.

[quote]As a ruler, he seems likely to have continued impoverishing the realm,[/quote]

Oh, please! Is there any evidence that Renly ever was in debt? Yes, he liked fine things, but in his position a shrewd man could indulge himself within his means. The Lannisters, even minor ones were equally gaudy anyway.
And Renly did dutifuly sit through the "copper-counting" sessions of the Small Council that Robert eshewed. Renly was not averse to doing the actual boring, but necessary work of ruling.

[quote]he also seems like he would be fairly weak willed, in th sense of being undisciplined, inclined to go along with whatever the majority of his advisers say,[/quote]

Huh? How is it a sin to listen to more experienced advisers, particularly when they make sense? Robb did so too, at first - and profited from it. It is when he stopped listening that he found himself in deep... trouble. Nor is being optimistic a sin. It isn't like Renly wasn't prepared for the worst - apart from the supernatural that nobody could have had a defense against.

[quote]His decisions and tactics, both in his slowness to attack King's Landing and how he reacted to Stannis' threat mostly lacked any kind of sense.[/quote]

Tyrion was quite impressed by the cleverness of Renly's strategy and that is all I need to know. Unlike Robb, he clearly kept in mind that his goal was to win this war, not to cover himself in glory in numerous, but ultimately futile battles. Also, letting Tywin and Robb batter each other to bloody pulp and then picking up the pieces made great sense - there would have been much less hard feelings against Renly if most of the killings were done by others. That would have made the eventual peace all the more durable and Renly's image as the new Conciliator stronger.

As to battle with Stannis - I honestly never understood Cat's criticism. 4 to 1 advantage in numbers is more than enough to guarantee victory and swinging a huge ponderous host to catch a small nimble ones, provided with ships for quick escape never made sense to me. I also disagree that putting Loras in charge of the van was a wrong decision - leader of the van needs to be inspirational and an excellent fighter. After all, there is nothing he can do in the sense of directing things once the battle is joined. Loras later proved himself to be a great choice for this role.

Basically, various people in the books and Tywin among them tended to mistake lack of experience (and in Renly's and Loras's case certain flamboyance) for not being dangerous. They were quite wrong, IMHO. Even though Renly was never given a chance to really rub it in.

Still, among the Baratheon brothers he was the best suited to be king, IMHO. He understood politics, diplomacy and intrigue, had considerable personal charm and wasn't averse to doing the day-to-day work required. He also understood grand strategy quite well - better than Robb in any case. He also surrounded himself with relatively capable people - apart from Mace, which couldn't have been helped.

[Jaak]

[quote name='snake' post='1279809' date='Mar 19 2008, 17.23']He then dismisses anothers warning that they would be charging into a blinding sun. His reason? He doesn't want it to be known he won the battle unchivalrously.[/quote]
Stannis left Melisandre behind when he marched on King´s Landing. His reason? He did not want it to be known that he won only due to her black magic.

[snake]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1280240' date='Mar 19 2008, 15.14']Stannis left Melisandre behind when he marched on King´s Landing. His reason? He did not want it to be known that he won only due to her black magic.[/quote]

Your point?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Maia' post='1280196' date='Mar 19 2008, 13.50']Tyrion was quite impressed by the cleverness of Renly's strategy and that is all I need to know.[/quote]
However Tyrion also felt the same way that Tywin did about Renly; that he was mush less of a threat than Stannis.

[Maia]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1284644' date='Mar 22 2008, 13.37']However Tyrion also felt the same way that Tywin did about Renly; that he was mush less of a threat than Stannis.[/quote]

Because Renly was untried and flamboyant, while Stannis was known to be not just seasoned, but a real bulldog, with that nightmarish siege and a couple of naval victories under his belt. Stannis also was geographically closer, had ships and in theory could have suddenly attacked KL at any time. In fact, a bolder, more risk-prone man might have done so - and likely been successful until late into Tyrion's tenure as a Hand.
Again, Tyrion approved of Renly's strategy, Renly's decision to give Loras the van was a right one and whatever Cat may have thought, taking a smaller quicker-moving (but still heavily favored by numbers) force against Stannis made sense. Renly's offer to Ned and his escape when Ned refused it also was quite reasonable. And Renly didn't easily become offended or bore grudges. He was also willing to involve himself with bolts and nuts of ruling. IMHO, he had the best prerequisites for becoming a good king among all the contenders.

[Jaak]

[quote name='snake' post='1284510' date='Mar 22 2008, 17.37']Your point?[/quote]
Deliberately fighting at a disadvantage when you still have the overwhelming strength is a move which Stannis also makes. For one thing, winning despite deliberate disadvantages functions as a show of strength which can discourage others from trying to resist (Although it can also serve as a demonstration of folly...).

[snake]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1285259' date='Mar 23 2008, 05.39']Deliberately fighting at a disadvantage when you still have the overwhelming strength is a move which Stannis also makes. For one thing, winning despite deliberate disadvantages functions as a show of strength which can discourage others from trying to resist (Although it can also serve as a demonstration of folly...).[/quote]

Okay. I still, don't see how this makes Renly any smarter though. All it shows is that Stannis was prone to make mistakes as well.

I'm just curious. Who in the books, besides Ser Loras and Brienne, thought Renly had what it took to be a good king? I know Stannis didn't(duh), Donal Noye didn't, Maester Cressen didn't, Qot didn't, the Kingslayer didn't and I think the Imp, Lord Tywin and Cersei doubted his abilities.

[Lyanna Snow]

It seems to me like a lot of Martin’s characters are based on historical people and I think Renly was the same way.

Bobby Kennedy anyone? What really makes me say that is everyone was ready for Bobby to be president, wanted him to be president. And guess what he got killed before it could happen. But everyone seemed to love Bobby in much the same way that the people in these books loved Renly. Granted I don’t know much about Bobby Kennedy. that was long before my time but from what I’ve read in my history text books and what I hear from people this seems true.

[Maia]

[quote name='snake' post='1285369' date='Mar 23 2008, 10.21']Okay. I still, don't see how this makes Renly any smarter though. All it shows is that Stannis was prone to make mistakes as well.

I'm just curious. Who in the books, besides Ser Loras and Brienne, thought Renly had what it took to be a good king?[/quote]

Those 100+ K people who joined his army? Including even people outside of Storm Lands and the Reach, like Robar Royce?

[quote]I know Stannis didn't(duh), Donal Noye didn't, Maester Cressen didn't, Qot didn't, the Kingslayer didn't and I think the Imp, Lord Tywin and Cersei doubted his abilities.[/quote]

What does it matter? Those people doubted abilities of everybody "unproven". Most of them doubted Tyrion, too until the Battle of the Blackwater. BTW, I don't recall Cressen doubting Renly's ability. IIRC he very much disapproved of Renly's goal of becoming a king and it's impact on Stannis, and of Renly's flamboyance, but that was all. Donal Noye last saw Renly when he was 6 and he also thought that Robert was "true steel", so his opinions can be safely dismissed. QoT was talking post mortem when it was only sensible to distance oneself from Renly and to denigrate him. Tyrion very much approved of Renly's strategy and thought that he'd have been doing the same thing in Renly's position. Cersei wanted to seize him during her little coup - she knew that he was a serious threat. Etc. And all of these people are/were also underestimating Littlefinger, no?

A young man in Renly's situation would have been wise not to flaunt his abilities. From what we _know_ of his actions - they were all very sensible, apart from perhaps claiming the throne itself, but that is the matter of debate. Naturally, I disagree with Cat that one needs 100K men to beat 5 K or that it is in any way reasonable to swing a huge, slow army to catch a small one that can easily escape via ships.

[delete this account pls]

I think Noye's assessment of Renly is reasonably accurate, in that his attraction to the kingship was based largely on the pomp and ceremony attached to it, but I also think Renly would have made a half decent King. Out of the five main contenders, and disregarding the knowledge that the Others Are Coming (knowledge which none of the candidates possessed when the war was raging) I think he's the best candidate. Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy, Stannis and Robb are all unsuited to the task of properly governing a realm, for different reasons. Renly was served well enough by his vassals - Mace Tyrell may be a buffoon, but Mathis Rowan and Randyll Tarly are both widely respected. Renly was shrewd enough politically, without being a treacherous schemer, nor was he burdened overly with a crippling devotion to honour. His main weakness was that he was untested militarily, but then so was Robb Stark, Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, and Tyrion Lannister, and Renly had a rather large advantage over those characters in that he'd been the Lord of Storm's End for some time, despite his youth, and a member of the small council besides.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Maia' post='1285671' date='Mar 23 2008, 17.33']Those 100+ K people who joined his army? Including even people outside of Storm Lands and the Reach, like Robar Royce?[/quote]
It wasn't 100+K decisions to follow Renly, though. First and foremost, it was Mace Tyrell's decision (and I think we can dismiss[i] his[/i] judgment even more safely than Donal Noyes!), his myriad vassals had little choice but to follow suit...even the Florents who didn't want to were in no position to say no at that point. And then Renly's own vassals who were bound to follow him; they can use the 'just following orders defense if he loses with minimal repercussions, but much worse repercussions if they refuse him at the outset, surrounded by his mighty host. The Conningtons (who defied Robert) came out of Robert's Rebellion rather worse than any of the Tyrell men who stuck with Mace throughout (though not those who abandoned the Tyrell cause and fought for Stannis).

As for Robar Royce, I think there may have been a little bit of 'don't put all your eggs in own basket' syndrome that the Swanns practiced, as well as being swept up in a mass movement, and maybe simple ties of friendship (see Theon Greyjoy's early fighting for Robb). I think it would be more telling if someone wasn't already physically present at the birth of one of these factions, but actually travelled great distances to join up, like Barristan Selmy did with Dany. How many examples are their besides Robar, btw?

[quote]Cersei wanted to seize him during her little coup - she knew that he was a serious threat.[/quote]Does that mean that she thought Horror and Slobber Redwyne were a serious threat, too? Just because it's sensible to make someone a hostage doesn't elevate their abilities to formidable levels.
[quote]Etc. And all of these people are/were also underestimating Littlefinger, no?[/quote]
That's purely class bias. LF had no mighty feudal levies to call up, so he's seen as a harmless nobody. It doesn't mean that those who dismiss him are automatically accurate about the enemies they [i]do[/i] fear.