Footy Time!

[Slick Mongoose]

Zenit played all the good football and deserved to win.

I really hope Bristol City get to the premiership, Johnson's been a great manager for years and deserves his chance at the top level.

[cteresa]

I saw just the final bit, and Zenit has some moves, they change the ball well in the area I am impressed. Good for Russia´s euro campaign, to have some players on a high?

BTW, not sure I actually saw it but when zenit subbed the korean(?) player in, he was crossing himself?!?

[quote name='Padraig' post='1355315' date='May 14 2008, 21.02']While I can see where you are coming from, I don't think i'm taking a huge leap of faith by saying that your team would improve with better strikers. :) As you say, Portugal has done very well without them over the last decade but the difference between winning and losing is minute sometimes and better strikers can easily make that difference. You can point at unluckyness/bad defending to explain why they lost (and every team suffers from those at some stage) but it takes goals to win.

But admittedly, you are probably tired of people talking about Portugesse strikers. :P[/quote]

Pod, this is only partially about Portugal, it´s that Portugal I *know* and I think know what it needs. All teams could be improved upon, all nations got weaknesses, and there is no perfect team. Personally I would not even put Portugal as 3rd favorites, lower would be more comfortable and probably truthful, I don´t care at all. But saying it was strikers which cost Portugal is not as I remember things. And I do remember it, much as I would rather forget. Our doom was another.

Football is not as much about strikers as it used to be. France in 98, I can´t even remember who their strikers where. Luca Toni, yes classical striker, but Marco Materazzi scored as many goals (and more important ones) as him in their world cup campaign. This year the golden boot will almost certainly be Cristiano Ronaldo ( who actually plays for Portugal, so if you are not too picky about "strikers", maybe he counts as Portugal goal threat. he scores like one), last year it was Francesco Totti with 26.

In a world cup or euro, an 100% inviolable goal, a supernatural goalkeeper, will surely win the cup, just because if it gets to penalty kicks and all are defended somebody will score eventually in the other goal. Anybody can put a ball on goal, only one can use hands in their own goal area, and errors in your own goal area can assure elimination no matter who plays upfront, while errors in the opposite area will not be not lethal if you have not suffered any goals yet. This is not to say that defensive is best, or that it is humanly possible for any goalkeeper ( or any other player) to not make mistakes. Just that I think you are ( and others ) are a bit fixated on strikers. This sort of level, teams will have to play as teams, and goals usually have been coming from all sort of different sources.

[Padraig]

Teresa, I was actually reading about the attitude in Portugal towards Euro 2008. It is apparently not that optimistic at all, which fits your general views. I was surprised until it was noted that in Portugal's qualifying group, Portugal failed to beat any of the top 4 teams home or away. That hints at a lack of experience/leadership/killer instinct or what have you. But you'd know a lot more about Portugal's campaign than I would. Admittedly Portugal qualified (which makes it more experienced) and the media likes to exaggerate.

I erred on the 3rd favourites thing. Portugal were joint 3rd favourites. Ronaldho is presumably driving their relativity high ranking, so if he is as tired as you fear, Portugal could suffer. The other factor behind their favourite position is that there is a lack of very plausible alernatives. Germany, sure. Italy as WC champions, why not. But other big teams like Holland, France etc seem to be struggling. So you could argue that they should be more 5th or 6th but i'd be more comfortable with 3rd.

I do think there is a subtle difference between the reason why a team loses and the reason why a team wins. But perhaps not so easy to explain. I think you are talking about the former, I am talking about the latter.

You are right that of the last 3 WC's, 2 of the winners weren't noted for their strikers. Brazil is the exception of course. Is that a trend in World Football? I don't know. Throw in Greece in Euro 2004 and perhaps it is. At least relating to international football. OTOH, the big club sides all have big name strikers. Strikers is where a lot of the passion in football still comes from. Nobody was that excited about the Italy or Greece winners in recent years. Even France was a little underwhelming in 1998 until it matured in 2000.

Anyhow, yes I am fixated on strikers. Mainly because they lead to goals, which is exciting. For even if you can depend on other players scoring, its always a relief to have the option of having a good striker. Even if they don't score themselves, they worry defenders and make it easier for that other player to get space and score.

I think Totti was playing as main forward last year for Roma. They decided to forego the use of an actual normal centre forward because of injuries.

[The Inquisitor]

France in 98 played with Guivarc'h up front. He had an excellent year in 97 with Brest (IIRC) scoring a lot, so he was in fire. However I think they decided to take him off after the first 2 matches since he had done nothing.

Also Christophe Dugarry enjoyed many minutes playing up there... I think he may have scored some goals against Paraguay and Saudi Arabia.

[The Inquisitor]

France in 98 played with Guivarc'h up front. He had an excellent year in 97 with Brest (IIRC) scoring a lot, so he was in fire. However I think they decided to take him off after the first 2 matches since he had done nothing.

Also Christophe Dugarry enjoyed many minutes playing up there... I think he may have scored some goals against Paraguay and Saudi Arabia.


BTW, my internet bookie pays as following for the Euro winner:

Germany15/4 Italy11/2 Spain25/4 France15/2 Portugal15/2 Netherlands12/1 Croatia14/1 Czech Republic14/1 Greece25/1 Switzerland28/1 Sweden33/1 Russia33/1 Romania40/1 Poland50/1 Turkey50/1 Austria80/1

[Padraig]

[quote name='The Inquisitor' post='1355964' date='May 15 2008, 08.39']France in 98 played with Guivarc'h up front. He had an excellent year in 97 with Brest (IIRC) scoring a lot, so he was in fire. However I think they decided to take him off after the first 2 matches since he had done nothing.

Also Christophe Dugarry enjoyed many minutes playing up there... I think he may have scored some goals against Paraguay and Saudi Arabia.[/quote]
:lol: I'm not sure am I suppose to laugh but this screams irony. Oh and it was Blanc that scored against Paraguay.

[quote]Germany15/4 Italy11/2 Spain25/4 France15/2 Portugal15/2 Netherlands12/1 Croatia14/1 Czech Republic14/1 Greece25/1 Switzerland28/1 Sweden33/1 Russia33/1 Romania40/1 Poland50/1 Turkey50/1 Austria80/1[/quote]
That seems reasonable too. :) Although, a little surprised Turkey is rated so badly.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='The Inquisitor']France in 98 played with Guivarc'h up front. He had an excellent year in 97 with Brest (IIRC) scoring a lot, so he was in fire. However I think they decided to take him off after the first 2 matches since he had done nothing.

Also Christophe Dugarry enjoyed many minutes playing up there... I think he may have scored some goals against Paraguay and Saudi Arabia.[/quote]

Guivarc'h had scored more than twenty goals per season for both Rennes and Auxerre from 96-98 IIRC, but didn't do anything at the WC. In fact, in their first game against South Africa he was substituted for Dugarry after half an hour, who then proceeded to score five minutes later (from a corner; he had been standing "inside" the goal which, AFAIK, put him offside. Dugarry wasn't the most prolific striker, but he knew how to cheat ;)). I just checked and apparently Guivarc'h was actually used regularly throughout the entire WC campaign, but I'll be damned if I remember anything he did.

[quote name='The Inquisitor']BTW, my internet bookie pays as following for the Euro winner:

Germany15/4 Italy11/2 Spain25/4 France15/2 Portugal15/2 Netherlands12/1 Croatia14/1 Czech Republic14/1 Greece25/1 Switzerland28/1 Sweden33/1 Russia33/1 Romania40/1 Poland50/1 Turkey50/1 Austria80/1[/quote]

I know next to nothing about betting, am I reading this right in that your bookie has Germany as favourites? Because considering that the doomsayers here have become more vocal again in the past few months (predicting abject failure for Germany is oh so fashionable before big tournaments) that would be pretty funny. Well, to me at least.

[quote name='Padraig']:lol: I'm not sure am I suppose to laugh but this screams irony. Oh and it was Blanc that scored against Paraguay.[/quote]

Is this the Alanis kind of irony? Because I'm not seeing it.

[The Iceman of the North]

To please cteresa (a Portuguese dog lover), I thought I'd bring up this story about Louis Figo. Apparently cat lovers in Milan are accusing Figo of deliberately running over a black cat near the training ground of Inter.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/1946492/Luis-Figo-'killed-Inter-Milan's-unlucky-black-cat'.html"]Luis Figo 'killed Inter Milan's unlucky black cat'[/url]
[quote]The Portuguese star was booed as he arrived for training ahead of Sunday's match against Siena.

Banners were held up bearing the slogans “Figo, you’ve killed a black cat, the whole world is disgusted with you” and “Figo, shame for Inter, justice for the cat”.

The controversy erupted after Vittorio Feltri, editor of the Libero newspaper, wrote that Figo, 35, had run over the cat because it was bringing the team bad luck.[/quote]

(Sorry if this has been mentioned here before, but if that's the case, I didn't spot it.)

[Daeric]

In time old tradition, the Rangers fan run riot :P

[url="http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080515/tuk-police-sickened-by-rangers-thugs-dba1618.html"]Go go Rangers[/url]

[cteresa]

Guiv´arch, :wideeyed: thanks guys! See, it is possible to win major tournaments without a good strikers - though home advantage ( or catenaccio) helps a lot.

About odds and if somebody´s position looks odds, remember the mechanics of betting agencies, they have to overflatter the odds of teams in which people will bet a lot, because just in case those do win, they will have to pay up. Specially for the world cup the odds of countries where there are very big betting markets as compared to similar seeming countries make you scratch you head till you get that.

Regarding those odds Loras, it would seem about right, but I would put Russia a bit higher ( just a hunch) and (sorry dear, but really...) Spain a little bit lower, and I would give France a better chance than Portugal rather than tied. They got serious talent, big population pool, which does not mean we won´t beat them when it matters one of these days, but just that from start up they do have theoretical advantages over us.

Pod regarding games in Portugal, top 4 teams, it was not IMO as bad as all that. Serbia and Poland played on the same week, same city and believable or not, they managed to tie their games on extra time, just before final whistle on similar system - trust me they were both lucky, and me complaining over conceding goals in stupid stopped ball situations being a bigger problem than strikers was NOT KIDDING. Believe it or not same thing sort of happened a month of so later in Azerbaijan (!) except thank goodness somebody in the team had not relaxed at 1-0 at minute 85 and "greedily" had bothered to score a second goal for a 2-0 and so we were saved ( guess who). The other home game was Finland, final game of qualifying, they needed to win, we needed one point only. They defended defended and defended all in their area and counted on maybe getting 15 minutes to counterattack. It is hard to describe properly that game, if there are any stats of how much time the ball passed outside the finnish half, maybe 3 minutes total. While I was nervous something like poland-serbia-azerbaijan might happen it did not, and I can´t get any sympathy for Finland at all. They needed to win and could have made it and they dont even try to attack? This is what i do not like about European teams. Oh, they held (apart from a correctly invalidated goal from Pepe) but that game was awful. The other home game was Belgium (?) and that was a 4-0 victory and played unbelievably well, and like nobody else in the world plays, not quite the same style as anybody else´s. Worth seeing that game.

Regarding Portugal and inexperience/leadership/killer instinct, of course, we are on renewal! (As is France, sort of). 11 of the 23 were not on previous tournaments, we used 40+ players in qualification ( and 4 different kits which is something), had maybe 5 different captains, and have not yet established any routines. Which is why this training camp is going to be very important as is the fact that Scolari has been consciously testing, picking and building a much younger team since the world cup. will we click on time, maybe, but it´s a risk we get to take, age does not forgive, renewal has to happen at some time.


Playing to win, playing to not lose, sure might be different things, but for a major title it´s more important to not lose than to win, penalty kick play offs after all. To win a league, you can not lose points, to win a cup you just got to hold on a little bit further than the others. Not that I think it will work for Portugal since I don´t completely trust our abilities on penalty kick taking but still, just pointing that out. Back to France 98, noooo, some teams won major major titles without real strikers. And IMO the creating of opportunities all through a game is the thing which causes excitement not just a ball being put on goal at a given moment.

[cteresa]

Iceman, it has been pointed out, word seems to be that he says he did kill the cat but by accident. I sort of believe him, killing a cat on purpose with a car, I dunno seems hard without the cat´s colaboration at standing still...

[quote name='SirRots' post='1355994' date='May 15 2008, 09.55']In time old tradition, the Rangers fan run riot :P[/quote]

oh dear. There have been a lot of british teams playing in this city in the last few years, I got to say it´s sort of funny to have the away fans of a british team invading a british city for once, just so you know what is like ;) Though that sounds even worse than the euro2004 games.

I hope there are not any problems in Moscow, garbage and noise and drunkenness is annoying but are fixed fast ...

[Padraig]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1355979' date='May 15 2008, 09.27']Is this the Alanis kind of irony? Because I'm not seeing it.[/quote]
Just as a reference to how well France was doing striker wise at that WC. Their main striker failed to perform and their 2nd choice scored against Saudia Arabia (boo haaa). I thought Loras was going to defend the French but that mustn't have been his intention. :)

And yes, I think Germany are generally felt to be favourites. Who else? They did very well in the last WC, had the least problem qualifying and seem in decent enough fettle.

France have flattered to deceive in recent times. Post-Zidane and a tough qualifying journey, they wouldn't be coming in as favourites. I know Ribery started very well with Bayern. Did he keep that form up for the rest of the season? He'll presumably be their key player. Spain are somewhat similar, except they flatter to deceive a lot more often!

[quote]And IMO the creating of opportunities all through a game is the thing which causes excitement not just a ball being put on goal at a given moment.[/quote]
I was being a bit facetious but strikers are normally involved in all parts of the exciting parts of the game.

And T, I was thinking some unluckyness might be involved with how Portugal failed to win some of those games. That comes with more experience too I suppose. With the latter you'll get that 2nd goal more regularly than depending on a 1 goal win.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Padraig']France have flattered to deceive in recent times. Post-Zidane and a tough qualifying journey, they wouldn't be coming in as favourites. I know Ribery started very well with Bayern. Did he keep that form up for the rest of the season? He'll presumably be their key player. Spain are somewhat similar, except they flatter to deceive a lot more often![/quote]

Ribéry is good and kept up his form throughout the season, but he is not that effective and IMO not a player who can carry a team. With Bayern he usually runs himself ragged on the left wing, is often too stubborn/selfish to pass the ball and instead tries to take on three defenders at once. Rarely works.

Toni is Bayern's player of the season, not as visible as Ribéry most of the time, he works less hard but has the uncanny ability to score almost at will, meaning that with him, less is actually more. Man I hate that guy.

[quote name='Padraig']And yes, I think Germany are generally felt to be favourites. Who else? They did very well in the last WC, had the least problem qualifying and seem in decent enough fettle.[/quote]

Consensus here seems to be Italy. The not so great results in the completely meaningless games since the qualification was secured have been what all the naysayers in Germany have been waiting for since 2006 and now they relish the opportunity to rubbish the teams chances.

I think they are strong enough to win. They have a solid defense, some excellent strikers and even the defensive midfield looks very good, but with Schneider out there is no creative player in the team whom I would trust to run the show: Schweinsteiger scores some goals but has never been able to shoulder responsibilty when the senior players were out and Hilbert, Fritz, Odonkor, Trochowski etc. are even less likely to step up. Maybe Ballack could be deployed in a more attacking role again, but that would mean tampering with the tactical formation the team has played since the Poland game in 2006.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Padraig' post='1356044' date='May 15 2008, 12.10']I was being a bit facetious but strikers are normally involved in all parts of the exciting parts of the game.[/quote]

Not from my point of view necessarily, for example Milan, who causes more excitement, Kaká or Inzaghi? or a team like Manchester United where they move ball and position and roles a lot during the attack, Giggs and Cristiano Ronaldo and Nani do not necessarily cause excitement or are less dangerous than Tevez and Rooney.


Popcorn munching time, Deco has just announced on his own that he is leaving Barcelona, does not care what Barcelona thinks of it, and since the only spanish club he would consider playing in Spain is Real Madrid and is not considering them he is going to Italy or England, thank you very much. I guess he is old enough that he can leave on a bosman or buy his contract.

Jon back to you next, just blabbing about ribery´s particular position..

[Padraig]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1356166' date='May 15 2008, 14.20']Ribéry is good and kept up his form throughout the season, but he is not that effective and IMO not a player who can carry a team. With Bayern he usually runs himself ragged on the left wing, is often too stubborn/selfish to pass the ball and instead tries to take on three defenders at once. Rarely works.[/quote]
Ahhh. He hasn't progressed so much since 2 years ago then. That's not a great sign for France. Interesting that Toni is doing so well though. Italy lacked an unfire striker last time out, so he could be just what they need. OTOH, Italy's team will be very similar to their WC winning one and I find it hard to be confident that they'll be able to drive themselves in the same way after winning last time.

Funny how so many of the Italian strikers are big and strong these days. Italy always had them but for every Caseraghi or Ravanelli they had a Zola or a Baggio.

Every country seems to want to deflate their chances. :P Its happening in Portugal and Germany. Bet Italy is pointing at Germany or France, while France is probably pointing at Italy or Germany. I agree though that its pointless to look at friendly results.

Schneider does appear to be a loss but after coming close last time (and it was a relatively inexperienced team at that time), Germany does seem to be ideally placed to move forward. And the draw is ideal. I think that's another reason why France and Italy's chances are a little lower than expected. Teams like Spain and Portugal have easier draws.

[quote]Not from my point of view necessarily, for example Milan, who causes more excitement, Kaká or Inzaghi? or a team like Manchester United where they move ball and position and roles a lot during the attack, Giggs and Cristiano Ronaldo and Nani do not necessarily cause excitement or are less dangerous than Tevez and Rooney.[/quote]
I'm not sure what i'm arguing anymore. :P There are lots of exciting players but i'm more talking about goal opportunities/actual goals. Normally a striker is involved (and we can all point at loads of exceptions). True though that it doesn't mean a striker is the most dangerous player on the pitch. Pretty play causes excitement but goals are the culmination of everything. Some strikers may not have brillant skills (e.g. the classic goal poacher) but still generate a huge amount of excitement because they keep on scoring. You could discuss this forever though...

[Maltaran]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1355994' date='May 15 2008, 09.55']In time old tradition, the Rangers fan run riot :P

[url="http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080515/tuk-police-sickened-by-rangers-thugs-dba1618.html"]Go go Rangers[/url][/quote]

An example of how idiotic they are - the big screen broke 15 minutes before the kick off. Technicians came to fix it, so the fans could watch the match, but the fans instead threw bottles at the technicians.

Oh and the Scottish Tories are complaining that the police were "heavy-handed". You can see now why no-one votes for them.

[DJDonegal]

[quote name='Padraig' post='1354696' date='May 14 2008, 12.05']Losing Eduardo isn't such a huge blow for Croatia I think.[/quote]
He has 13 goals in 22 caps. It's never a bad record when you've got that many goals in that many caps.

[Padraig]

[quote name='DJDonegal' post='1357150' date='May 15 2008, 23.30']He has 13 goals in 22 caps. It's never a bad record when you've got that many goals in that many caps.[/quote]
True enough. I was really just comparing it to the loss of Rosicky.

[Jon AS]

Ah, Löw's nominations are out, three of these guys will be sent home before the tournament:

Lehmann (Arsenal), Enke (Hannover),Adler (Leverkusen)

Metzelder (R. Madrid), Mertesacker (Bremen), Lahm (Bayern), A. Friedrich (Hertha), Jansen (Bayern), Fritz (Bremen),Westermann (Schalke)

Ballack (Chelsea), Hitzlsperger (Stuttgart), Rolfes (Leverkusen), Frings (Bremen), Schweinsteiger (FC Bayern), Trochowski (Hamburg), Borowski (Bremen), Jones (Schalke), Odonkor (B. Sevilla), Marin (Gladbach)

Klose (FC Bayern), Podolski (Bayern), Gomez (Stuttgart), Kuranyi (Schalke), Helmes (Köln), Oliver Neuville (Gladbach)

Leaving out Hildebrand is maybe a little surprising, as is the fact that Odonkor got in, but if he is still as fast after his injuries he could still be valuable as a second half substitute. The biggest surprise is Gladbach's Marin, who could inject a bit of creativity into the midfield, though it is unlikely he will be in the starting formation.

If I had to pick three of these to stay home, Helmes and Trochowski would be immediate candidates, but with only seven defenders nominated I'm not sure sending one of those home would be that wise. Come to think of it, wouldn't four strikers be enough? In which case Neuville would be left out as well, otherwise maybe Borowski or Jones.

[cteresa]

Pod, I think my point is about attacking being exciting, and that a great attack depends on more than strikers. I think at heart we got different expectations of what a striker does for a team - I just deleted stuff I had written about how different teams play "for" a striker or "along with" striker , there are different ways.

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1356166' date='May 15 2008, 14.20']Ribéry is good and kept up his form throughout the season, but he is not that effective and IMO not a player who can carry a team. With Bayern he usually runs himself ragged on the left wing, is often too stubborn/selfish to pass the ball and instead tries to take on three defenders at once. Rarely works.[/quote]

I finally saw a bit of their game in St Petersburg, one of those abridged eurosport reruns some days later. But other than that, I have not seen that much Bayern this season, so not arguing the case in the specific but just in general : do you think maybe that sort of problem is not inherently related to the position played? If I have seen him enough, he is not a winger, not as I understand it but he plays on the side. It´s always difficult for players which are not on the centre of midfield to control or "carry a team", they do not have the space or are in a position to receive or send the best passes to others. About selfish or stubborn to pass dunno, but despite him not being a real winger ( neither is Messi), dear you are sort of describing the breed - Messi included, though Messi is better and is in a sort of state of grace regarding criticism . Maybe there are different types like that young english guy Lennon who IMo whenever I see him seems like he only knows one trick, one move, run very fast along and send a pass to the centre of the goal area no matter who was there, but that is that. Trying to take on defenders has a high percentage of failure, but it must be tried, often works and when it works there are lots more geometrically possible options :) It´s a peculiar breed.

Regarding Ribery, have seen bits of him playing for France, and him and Malouda ( if only Malouda is fit and motivated) providing for Thierry Henry ahead of them has very interesting possibities. TH does not get that sort of service at Barça, though strangely if I am getting this right, he is so far their stop scorer this season. Really ;)

Italy´s odds, bah, who ever is able to figure them out?!? Usually they seem to take a while to get in gear in tournaments, to wake up, them being in a group of death, if they screw up first couple games they might not get a chance to recoup. Their third match is against France :) OTOH they might not need to get in gear, the team seems to have had no abrupt changes from the world cup, they seem comfortable with each other, having routines and just smooth and italian and very very italian. ..