NFL Thread: Training Camps open

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

While I do think Demarcus Ware is the best pass rusher in the NFL right now, I'd also put Terrell Suggs, James Harrison and Shawn Merriman right up there with him.

[DanteGabriel]

While I do think Demarcus Ware is the best pass rusher in the NFL right now, I'd also put Terrell Suggs, James Harrison and Shawn Merriman right up there with him.

We'll see about Merriman this year.

[Scuba Steve]

Well, Oakland has traded Derrick Burgess to the Patriots. I'm...really not sure how I feel about this trade. :unsure:

[boiled leather]

Well, Oakland has traded Derrick Burgess to the Patriots. I'm...really not sure how I feel about this trade. :unsure:

you like it. can it be worse than moss for a 4th? Absolutely not. Oakland is the cancer that consumes young footballers. with minor exceptions like Asomaugha (must be his stellar Cal education). Burgess had checked out. No matter how well he plays in NE, he'd have never played half that well in Oakland this year.

[Gold Storm]

Crabtree is doing the same thing Quinn tried a couple years ago. He felt that he was projected as atop five pick and was not drafted there; however, still felt he should get top five money. Did not work for Quinn and probably will not workout for Crabtree.

The NFL needs a rookie pay scale like the NBA has, this would save a lot of hassle and holdouts, also teams would be able to stop paying a rookie more than any other player on the team.

[Scuba Steve]

you like it. can it be worse than moss for a 4th? Absolutely not. Oakland is the cancer that consumes young footballers. with minor exceptions like Asomaugha (must be his stellar Cal education). Burgess had checked out. No matter how well he plays in NE, he'd have never played half that well in Oakland this year.

Hmmm, that's true. And do you doubt that it could be worse than Moss for a 4th? I mean, this is the Raiders. Okay, it probably won't be that bad.

[Trebla]

bloggers are saying Oakland got a 3rd and a 5th. Not bad for Oakland...but I think Burgess really helps NE's pass rush.

[Space Bandito]

San Fran is looking like they caught themselves a Diva. Hopefully this will be the one that breaks the camels back and creates some type of Rookie pay scale/cap.

Looking to see what Derrick Burgess can bring. The Pats defense needs to step up after a horrible year last year. Sure a young QB put more pressure on them, but they were horrendous on 3rd down. Hopefully Burgess can bring some rush.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I'm not too up on NFL policies, but if Crabtree doesn't want to play by their rules and reenter the draft, could the NFL deny him entrance next year?

And if not, how do the 49ers get compensated for losing a high first round pick?

I'm of the opinion that no franchise deserves a player like Crabtree. I didn't know he was like that, but the 49ers deserve better.

When San Diego had to take Phillip Rivers instead of Eli, I felt bad for the Chargers despite being a division rival. They were just getting crapped on. I was real happy to see Rivers turned out to be the better QB, though I guess that's debatable now that Eli won the big one. I think Rivers would've done the same if he stayed on the Giants, he is very talented.

[Mexal]

Rookie pay really pisses me off. I don't think we're ever going to get Andre Smith into camp. With the 5th and 7th pick signed, we still aren't even close. It really blows that Sanchez went 5th and got a massive QB deal and that the Jets paid so much damn money to Gholston last year. With the Bengals being cheap, we're likely to never sign him.

On another note, the Bengals pretty much have no TEs left given that 3 of them are injured. However, we're still going to the Super Bowl so I'm not all that worried.

[ZANNI_1276]

Hey guys its been a while and I finally have a couple of minutes. Here couple of thoughts on some posts/news…

1. Either Crabtree is a giant douche or his agent is a flaming moron. If he actually follows through his agent will cost him even more money…Probably wouldn’t get drafted until 15th plus or higher slot next year (if it actually happens) costing his client money and there is talk about readjusting the rookie cap next year and he will be costing his client even more money. WoW maybe everyone in the top 10 was onto something by passing on this kid – dare I say it even the RAIDERS!?!?!?

LOL nahhh, they still would have taken the speedster…Wonder why Leach hasn’t put down the hoagie and opened his big mouth to sound off about how the 49ers are treating his guy? Didn’t he claim Crabtree wasn’t a diva then blasted Mangini or something? Oh wait a minute, maybe it has something to do with not getting into a name calling match with a certain 49ers head coach is the reason he has remained so silent…I just saw this somewhere and I am not sure if any of you guys remember this one…

“I'm Samurai Mike I stop'em cold.

Part of the defense, big and bold,

I've been jammin' for quite a while,

Doin' what's right and settin' the style,

Give me a chance, I'll rock you good,

Nobody messin' in my neighborhood.

I didn't come here lookin' for trouble,

I just came to do The Super Bowl Shuffle†- I would love to be a fly on the wall at the practice facility with Samurai Mike and his rookie WR – when or if he finally reports, man get the Hard Knocks crew over there if it happens because that would be MUST SEE TV.

2. Ware’s contract will surpass the ridiuculous contract that Haynesworth signed. IMO, Ware is the best DEF player in the game right now (I would put him ahead of Harrison but not by much, just my opinion), though to a certain extent he is perhaps a little underrated, only because the guy is relatively quiet, reserved and doesn’t date superstars. In other words he is the best player in the 3 ring circus in Dallas but because he actually does his job well and keeps his mouth shut he takes a back seat to Jerry Jones, Romo the ex WR TO and company.

3. Eli’s contract was outlandish and I come from the school of thought that because the QB position is arguably the toughest position in pro sports that them receiving big bucks is “relatively†reasonable to me. And I like Eli – he is a top 10 QB but he is not in the ELIte group with his brother, Brady or Brees – heck even the second grouping of Big Ben, Rivers, Warner, McNabb - you may have to put him with the guys that are up an coming like Rodgers, Cutler and company who may actually end up better QB very, very soon. Eli signing that contract right now at this time is tough for me to swallow – he has no PLAX, (3) rookie WR’s and bunch of guys who would be considered 2nd (at best BTW) or 3rd WR’s this year to go with the rookies. So he signed a big extension and there is a distinct possibility he may have a down year at least performance wise. In other words I hope this kid is prepared for a public beating by the NY Media because if his performance is anything less than the NFC East crown and a long trip in January he is going to hear it. I just think the Giants overpaid, surprising too because I too have a lot of respect for Reese and normally the guy is pretty shrewd and wise but I think he got snookered here.

4. NE traded for DE Derrick Burgess – the rich keep on getting richer. Great pick up for the PATs, guy was quietly one of the best defensive players in the league for the past 4 years or so and even though he is like 31, doesn’t matter, Bill B seems to age veterans like a fine wine up in the northeast and he beefs up the pass rush almost instantly. Another savvy pick-up – wonder if Poili was still there he would have been all over it? Hmmmmm… Plus the compensation sounds OK, considering Bill stockpiled picks in the 2009 draft for the 2010 – he can absorb the compensation and still be in fantastic shape – man I hate that guy but you can’t argue he is one the best.

5. I understand the animosity towards Josh McD and ultimately I think he setting himself up for failure in like a biblical proportion kind of way. That is unless he can squeeze something out of Orton (man that is a BIG – HUGE – IF) the Broncos are in for a long year both from a PR point of view and more importantly on the field. Who knows – maybe McD will wash out in a year and with Gruden studying the spread offense right now you may have Chucky and Tim Tebow in the Rockies in 2010! (Half joking and well actually mostly joking who am I kidding but it is an interesting thought ).

6. They need to get moving on a rookie slotting scale/cap - but things are looking so grim with NFLPA/Owners right now - already firing salvos at one another but at least they have opened communication. Will see what happens but ultimately we are in for a bloody battle with a work stoppage in the future. Maybe I am wrong though.

Other than that – can’t wait to get this season moving….Lot’s of interesting stories that need to be played out – and that is before the regular season even starts…

[DanteGabriel]

Who knows – maybe McD will wash out in a year and with Gruden studying the spread offense right now you may have Chucky and Tim Tebow in the Rockies in 2010!

I'll be very curious to watch the coaching changes late in the season and in the postseason, with guys like Cowher, Shanahan, and Gruden waiting in the wings for some desperate-for-respectability owner to throw a fortune at them.

[Young Wolf]

A 3rd and a 5th for Burgess? HHmmm...I suddenly don't feel so violated now. If he's healthy, he's going to be a beast for NE, though I hope the fucker does jackshit since he opted to force the Raiders to trade him by sitting out.

Not to go off on a tangent here, but more and more we see football players opting to sit out or hold out when they aren't happy about their contracts. Wtf? They get paid millions, you signed the fucking deal and were obviously happy with it when you signed...play it out and then go sign with another team if you wish.

Between Crabtree, Burgess, E. Manning's draft stunt, and countless others...football players are looking more and more like greedy, whiny bitches and less like the violent bad-asses of old.

[ZANNI_1276]

Not to go off on a tangent here, but more and more we see football players opting to sit out or hold out when they aren't happy about their contracts. Wtf? They get paid millions, you signed the fucking deal and were obviously happy with it when you signed...play it out and then go sign with another team if you wish.

I hear you but there is a flip side your point. An owner can cut a player and virtually void any contract w/$ for pretty much any reason whether it is performance on the field, off the field antics or just age or wanting the contract off thier own books. It is not like baseball where all contracts are guaranteed no matter how the player performs good or bad.

In the NFL the owners/FO can cut a player and not fulfill the contract at any time. Now if as a player you can have your ticket punched at anytime by an organization - and not get the money that the organization also commited to you you as a player on your contract - in theroy why can't a player lobby for a new deal? Even if it means sitting out of camp or even games to force the owners hand. They can make you expendable and void any agreement at anytime they feel fit and if it works one way why not the other in favor of the player.

Mind you - I am not saying I agree with the NFL system - from the owner perspective to the players but I sympathize with the players they have no leverage other than sitting out or staging a "gripe" but the owners can toss you out like yesterdays garbage at anytime for any reason. Hopefully all this will be addressed in the new contract where it is better structured for both parties because as much as I love the NFL this is actually more flawed than the NFL rookie contract situation IMO...

Dante G - I agree next year will be interesting with the likes of Shanahan, Gruden, Cowher - perhaps even Parcells if he feels the itch. Guys like Zorn, Phillips, Lovie Smith and Jaron best brush up the ole' assistant resume....Funny tidbit is both Gruden and Shanahan are studying the college "spread" offense to see how or if it can be utilized in the pros - that is why I can see whomever may draft Tebow find either Shanahan or Gruden as an appealing candidate or vice versa...Frankly I don't think a spread system would work but those dudes have more football smarts in thier fingernail than I do period.

[DanteGabriel]

Simon and all other Broncos fans, I wonder what you guys think about Jay Cutler publicly poo-pooing your passion for your team:

On the show, Cutler was asked about the 20,000 fans who showed up at Bears training camp in Bourbonnais, Ill., during the weekend.

"In Denver, we didn't have this many fans at all," he said. "We weren't even able to accommodate that many fans [at practice]. That's Chicago Bears fans for you. They're proud of their Bears.

"It's a lot [different]. Denver's like a 6 and Chicago's like a 9," Cutler said during the interview. "It's quite a bit different. Just the fans and how passionate they are, that's probably the biggest difference."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp...tory?id=4383316

Look, I understand the newly arrived star QB wants to kiss up to his new team's fans, but it doesn't seem strictly necessary to talk shit about the fans who supported you for your first few years in the league. He could easily have said whatever nice things he wanted to say about Chicago without stooping to the unfavorable Denver comparison.

[Jaime L]

When did the Raiders become a farm system for the Patriots? Did I miss that memo?

And I like Eli – he is a top 10 QB but he is not in the ELIte group with his brother, Brady or Brees – heck even the second grouping of Big Ben, Rivers, Warner, McNabb - you may have to put him with the guys that are up an coming like Rodgers, Cutler and company who may actually end up better QB very, very soon. Eli signing that contract right now at this time is tough for me to swallow – he has no PLAX, (3) rookie WR’s and bunch of guys who would be considered 2nd (at best BTW) or 3rd WR’s this year to go with the rookies.

Agree completely with everything you said except this. Is he a top 10 guy? I mean, we say that, because it sounds right....he was a #1 overall pick and he did win a Superbowl. But in my view, as a Redskin fan who's watched a lot of Eli over the years I really don't think he is. Here's the list of guys I take over Eli to take me to a Superbowl this season)

Brady

Manning

Brees

Roethlisberger

Rivers

Cutler

Rodgers

McNabb

Romo

Palmer

Collins

Hasselback

Then...Eli. I'll be honest I just don't trust him. I think he makes bad decisions at bad times. I don't think he's a leader. I think his shortcomings are hidden by a great running offense and a great O-line. He's a guy you can win a Superbowl with...but I think it's far more likely you'll have to carry him there than vice versa. He got a ton of credit in '07 for not screwing up what his team was accomplishing around him (although in fairness he did have a couple signature, clutch, drives during that put him a tad above the caretaker Superbowl winning QBs like Dilfer and Johnson but probably not above anyone else) I think the way he performed without Burress last year was telling (no-one left to catch his too-high throws). All I know is when the Skins play the Giants, the one weak spot of that team I think we can exploit is Eli. Always Eli.

[ZANNI_1276]

Look, I understand the newly arrived star QB wants to kiss up to his new team's fans, but it doesn't seem strictly necessary to talk shit about the fans who supported you for your first few years in the league. He could easily have said whatever nice things he wanted to say about Chicago without stooping to the unfavorable Denver comparison.

I hear you - part of me wants to think "hey, the kid is trying to suck up to the new city and media" and the other part has me thinking he has used up all his free passes on stupidity for the 2009 season ya know? Either stop talking to the media or think before you speak.

Keepin it classy ehh kid?

Kid has a cannon and the makings of a very good qb but he keeps pulling duchebag moves at every turn. I said earlier that I feel bronco fans but it has more to do with the situation and less about the individual player/coach because on one hand he is so talented and you gotta say how the f^ck can McDaniels do better or find better than him but on the other hand this kid is a total tool. I just wish this kid can figure out how to cut out the drama. Oh well but if I was a broncos fan this may kinda tork me off a bit though.

EDIT: Jamie L - to a certain extent I agree with you. I do think he is a top 10 qb - right in there around 10. I caught your list, I would take Eli over Hasselback (at this time in his career), Collins and well, Eli has won a playoff game or two so that would be the swing vote over taking ahead of Romo, but when I said top 10 I was talking about him being at the back of that line. Good point though, nearly 100 million and we have debated at the least 10-11 guys who may or may not be better than Eli. If his name was Anderson and he played in any of the markets in the midwest no way would he even smell that kind of deal...

[DanteGabriel]

I was thinking about starting a thread on the best QB of all time. I think it's a great sports debate because it's so...debatable. Do y'all think that should be a thread all in itself or should i just start the discussion here?

(I promise not to argue that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB of all time, yet)

You can start a thread if you like, but that thread would be two words long, and those words are "Joe" and "Montana". ;)

[Mexal]

You can start a thread if you like, but that thread would be two words long, and those words are "Joe" and "Montana". ;)

And unfortunately, right behind him, you will be saying Tom Brady. Discussion over.

[DanteGabriel]

And unfortunately, right behind him, you will be saying Tom Brady. Discussion over.

I'd ask you not to put words in my mouth or make assumptions about me, so kindly fuck off. There's no cause to start this shit.