Is the Black Fish Gay?

[Liadin]

Homosexuality doesn't seem like much reason not to get married in Westeros. I lean more toward the "he doesn't like domestic life and doesn't want to bend to Hoster's will" theory. Loving someone else is romantic, and I suppose it's possible, but love and marriage aren't necessarily expected to go hand-in-hand with noble marriages.

I like the asexuality theory too. Fiction needs more asexuals.

New theory: do we know if Hoster ever proposed anyone to him other than that one girl? Maybe he had something against her in particular, and after that fight led to his estrangement from Hoster, he didn't see any reason to get married anymore. (In his quasi-disowned position, he might have found it hard to get a wife anyway. He wouldn't get a noble girl to go live with him in semi-exile at the Bloody Gate, and although I don't recall any particular elitism from him, he may not have wanted to marry the daughter of some knight.)

[Lady Blackfish]

New theory: do we know if Hoster ever proposed anyone to him other than that one girl? Maybe he had something against her in particular, and after that fight led to his estrangement from Hoster, he didn't see any reason to get married anymore.

There isn't anything in particular that would be for or against, IIRC.

Her father glanced out over the rivers. "Blackfish," he said. "Has he wed yet? Taken some ... girl to wife?"

Even on his deathbed, Catelyn thought sadly. "He has not wed. You know that, Father. Nor will he ever."

"I told him ... commanded him. Marry! I was his lord. He knows. My right, to make his match. A good match. A Redwyne. Old House. Sweet girl, pretty ... freckles ... Bethany, yes. Poor child. Still waiting. Yes. Still ..."

"Bethany Redwyne wed Lord Rowan years ago," Catelyn reminded him. "She has three children by him."

"Even so," Lord Hoster muttered. "Even so. Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother ... that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken's girl. Walder Frey ... any of three, he said ... Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?"

To me it doesn't seem like Hoster was very tied to the notion of Bethany Redwyne in particular, just that he couldn't understand why Brynden would turn her down. I don't see the particular girl being the source of the rift, that is, and it seems like Hoster was able to broach the topic with other candidates in mind before they parted ways. At least that's how I read it.

[Aubrem]

I don't know if the Blackfish is gay or not, but I always thought his story of refusing a marriage was meant to be seen alongside Lysa's forced marriage as an example of how men are able to make choices in that society and women are not.

Nice insight.

I always figured the reason Blackfish didn't want to get married was a question that would eventually get answered - it seems like a big glaring question mark that screams for an answer from GRRM. Maybe not though. Maybe it's as you say, just a comparison with Lysa's situation and a mystery that won't get answered because life is sometimes like that - you don't get all your questions answered.

[Dreadwolf]

1026

Be that as it may.

My own resourcefulness is void and that makes me sad from time to time.

Holy melancholy. :leaving:

[Rockroi]

delorasedwasright:

Again, though, does it really matter to us, the readers, what his sexuality is ?

That was the point of my post; ultimately the reason does not matter (I think he is gay); what matters is that he has refused to support his family in his duty to marry and multiply; secure the Tully name.

[Knight of the Teabags]

I think the Brynden/Lysa comparision is a good one and the comment that often springs to mind to me is when he says to Cat of Lysa something along the lines of.

"She'll marry only when she is ready and only to the one she loves."

If we take that as Brynden's own personal feelings on love in general, there's one thing we can say for sure about his sexual preferences and that is he is strictly monogamus. He's also as we know a deeply honourable man and not just for public opinion, even if he was having a secret lover Brynden's conscience won't allow him to live a public lie like marrying somebody he doesn't love - not like Renly.

I personally think Brynden is gay and I am going to advance a potential candidate as a theoretical longterm boyfriend. This man is about the same age as Brynden (late fifties/early sixties), renowned as both a great warrior and a honourable man and like Brynden as far as we know celibate.

I first hit on this theory when I reread the story of how Brynden went to guard the Gates of the Vale when Hoster declared for Robert. Therefore he never during the Rebellion ever crossed swords with any of the loyalists - people who read into this for a Dany-centric POV go 'Ah! Brynden must therefore be a closet Targ supporter'. My comment against that is 'well I think a man as contarian and honourable as Brynden if he was that strong in Targ loyalty would have into gone exile with Viserys and Dany'. I just think there is a far more personal, simpler and human answer for Brynden's actions and that is he feared he might have to fight the one he loved.

And who is this man I propose as Brynden's lover? Well we know GRRM loves his references to history and myth in Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert we already have a Paris, a Helen and a Menelaus, so what about an Achilles to Brynden's Patrocles? Or an Alexander to his Hephaesistion?

Their Troy is the War of the Ninepenny Kings and the three great heroes who are praised most highly are Brynden Tully, his brother Hoster and the knight I am proposing as his lover. I am actually not going to name him as I think as anyone who's been keeping up with me here know by now who I am talking about.

Anyway a few more clues and a little further 'cherry' in the gay theory to add. This knight is actually a white knight to first Jaerherys, then Aerys (which explains Brynden staying home during the Rebellion), then Robert and finally Daenerys. Then the 'cherry'; before he served Jaerherys this knight was his father's heir and when he joined the King's Guard (as Loras Tyrell will attest the 'best closet' in Westeros) he abandoned his betrothed at the altar(which I believe is recorded in his entry in the White Book).

Pure speculation of course but great fun none the less! :)

[Namorath]

delorasedwasright:

That was the point of my post; ultimately the reason does not matter (I think he is gay); what matters is that he has refused to support his family in his duty to marry and multiply; secure the Tully name.

besides is a ASOIAF forum post we got all the time in the world to talk about everything

im keeping my vote for asexual, Blackfish only like to play with the metal swords :fencing:

[Blackfish Blues]

Hi all, long time lurker, this brought me out of the shadows. (Not a native English speaker, so please forgive all the malapropisms.)

Is the Blackfish gay? Brief answer: I don't think so; he could be; I'm ok if he's asexual; I like some theories that have been brought forward here and I have one of my own that I don't think has ever been addressed.

Long answer...

My gaydar doesn't make a peep. Which in itself is a good thing, because I'd love a gay character who is not a stereotype but an actual human being, who can be a great warrior and love men without going around in fabulous clothes or covered in roses (cough - no really, I love Loras/Renly). Yet the vibes are just not there. I admit it's a subjective perception, though.

If he were gay, I don't see it as an obstacle to marriage and fathering heirs. I love the idea of him not wanting to make his wife suffer, which would put his sensitivity quite above the average man in Westeros. Still, he's a practical man, and I guess he had a certain wisdom even in his youth, so he might have looked around and found a suitable woman, just as practical-minded, who was more interested in his status than in him, and thus would be perfectly happy to live her own life raising some little Tully heirs while hubby was away fighting battles and hitting on Barristan Selmy (is he the one you were thinking of, Knight of the Teabags? Hmmmm). If the lady is open-minded enough, and if our hero has some reliable male friend, they might not even need to be Brynden's own children.

Faithful to another woman/man, maybe even already married... dunno. It's a romantic notion quite un-Martinesque, but then again Martin likes to surprise us (Jaime/Cersei). However, this seems to go against Catelyn's comment "Nor will he ever". Catelyn seems to know her uncle's secret. His beloved might die, or stop loving him... and anyway, why not tell Hoster? He'd be just as furious and he'd have an even better reason to disown Brynden. Unless it is another of those "Promise me, Bryn" situations, but that's been done to death.

(OMGZ! The Blackfish is Jon Snow's father!!!1!!!!!1!!)

I like the idea that Brynden's refusal is a protest against Hoster's meddling in the personal lives of his relatives, especially Lysa. But still... why the secrecy? Why not tell him to his face, beside making black sheep - black fish jokes? It's not in character with our outspoken and blunt Blackfish.

It's the secrecy that bothers me. Let's go back for a moment to Ned's silence about Jon. This hurts Catelyn, but we can conjure up various explanations: wanting to protect the lady's honour (Lyanna's? Ashara's?) or Jon himself (R+L=J? I'm pretty neutral about Jon theories, but the latter seems to me the most likely). But what reason does Brynden have to jeopardize the Tully line by refusing to marry and father an heir? Not telling makes him look irresponsible and egotistical.

Unless GRRM does want to drag him down the road of darkness, making him an anti-Jaime. I'd be saddened, because I'd miss the kind old warrior who jumps down from the dais to hug Catelyn when everybody else is shunning her, or holds her hand during Hoster's funeral.

BUT. Here is my theory.

*************AFFC SPOILERS**************

Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is a Warrior's Son, a member of the Faith Militant.

The Faith Militant was outlawed by Maegor the Cruel and reinstated by Tommen. In AFFC, as soon as it's no more illegal, it begins its activity again, IIRC, thus it seems that it hasn't just been non-existent during all the centuries in between. It's likely that Warrior's Sons kept being ordained and taking their vows, including celibacy and surely secrecy. If I'm not missing some glaring inconsistency, I think this fits perfectly with Brynden's behaviour through the years. It looks like he's broken his oath of secrecy only once, with Catelyn.

What say you?

[Knight of the Teabags]

*************AFFC SPOILERS**************

Brynden "Blackfish" Tully is a Warrior's Son, a member of the Faith Militant.

The Faith Militant was outlawed by Maegor the Cruel and reinstated by Tommen. In AFFC, as soon as it's no more illegal, it begins its activity again, IIRC, thus it seems that it hasn't just been non-existent during all the centuries in between. It's likely that Warrior's Sons kept being ordained and taking their vows, including celibacy and surely secrecy. If I'm not missing some glaring inconsistency, I think this fits perfectly with Brynden's behaviour through the years. It looks like he's broken his oath of secrecy only once, with Catelyn.

What say you?

Like all the stories about the knights Templars secretly existing in the shadows of European History long after their organisation's forced disolution in 1314? In the broad spectrum I personally like the idea of the Faith Militant continuing in secret past Maegor's laws, that said there is one question that immediately comes to mind regarding Brynden Tully hypothetically being a secret member of the Faith Militant.

Is it not somewhat out of character for a member of the devout secret society to very openly support with arms a non-believer for King even if that non-believer is his great nephew?

Oh and you are right my theory is BT 4 BS!

[Blackfish Blues]

You're right, KOTT, I hadn't thought about the Knights Templar, but it's an apt paragon.

Is it not somewhat out of character for a member of the devout secret society to very openly support with arms a non-believer for King even if that non-believer is his great nephew?

This is a very sound objection. My theory is probably tinted by my personal view of Brynden as a wise and pragmatical but impulsive man. Maybe he took the vows in a youthful, spur-of-the-moment decision, and, though he kept them, he had to be aware that it was a lost cause. I'm not sure about the timeline (is anybody sure? is GRRM sure?) but possibly the news of Tommen's decree haven't reached him yet.

So he supports the lesser of two evils, maybe counting on the fact that Robb, though he keeps to the old gods, would be a tolerant ruler if he prevailed. I'm out on a limb here, and I hear a strange creaking sound.

However, there are two references that still make me wonder; or rather, two lacks of references.

1. Brynden is supposed to worship the Seven like Catelyn, but (though allowing for the fact that he is a rather minor character and doesn't have a POV) I think he rarely refers to them, if ever. It might mean nothing, or it could have something to do with an oath of secrecy. The limb is getting distinctly uncomfortable.

2. When Robb is acclaimed King of the North, nowhere it is said that Brynden joins in the cheering. I'm sure about this because I re-read the scene recently. Misgivings? Dark fears like Catelyn's, or a divided conscience?

I've always thought that with words like "Family, Duty, Honour" it is very difficult for a Tully to uphold all three at the same time...

UPDATED: Almost forgot! BTxBS is very intriguing, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that if they should meet again they'd kill each other... oh well... GRRM kills everybody. :crying:

[Xanrn]

Yeah they are hold to uphold at the same time, but I am pretty sure the word "before" is ment to be in there.

Family before Duty before Honour.

Blackfish isn't the type of person to cheer. If he is a Church Knight he isn't that Religious considering he threw in with a Northern Pagan.

Also how did he become a Church Knight, when they haven't excisted for 250 or so years. Why would there be Church Knights hiding around Westeros.

No whole theory makes no sense.

He could have pulled a Tyrion when he was younger and wanted/did marry a peasant or a "Spicer" and he brother was like "No" so the Blackfish replied "Never".

Lyn Corbray isn't gay btw, he is a paedophile. Slight difference.

[Blackfish Blues]

Hehe, not bad for my first day here, I've already concocted an off-topic crackpot theory :blush:

Yeah they are hold to uphold at the same time, but I am pretty sure the word "before" is ment to be in there.

Family before Duty before Honour.

That's something I've always felt too, and that's why I think Brynden, whatever his background, would support his nephew Robb.

BTW, this puts an interesting spin on Ned's actions; he certainly put duty and honour before his family. Then again, he isn't a Tully. But let's not stray further from the topic...

Blackfish isn't the type of person to cheer.

Agreed, especially not with a bunch of other people. I feel he's too individualistic.

If he is a Church Knight he isn't that Religious considering he threw in with a Northern Pagan.

I'm not sure whether the word "pagan" is actually used when the Faith Militant starts appearing in the saga (I have read AFFC only once). We could apply the word to the Northern gods in opposition to the Faith of the Seven. I still believe that, when push comes to shove, Brynden would support his own family rather than the supposedly devout Lannisters & Co.

Also how did he become a Church Knight, when they haven't excisted for 250 or so years. Why would there be Church Knights hiding around Westeros.

No whole theory makes no sense.

Agreed on the last comment. :blush: But if the Faith Militant reappeared so fast when Tommen reinstated it; there must have been a sort of continuity through the centuries, or people would have just forgotten about it, I think. So Warrior's Sons kept being ordained in secret, in the hopes of a rebirth, a bit like the followers of R'hllor await the return of Azor Ahai.

He could have pulled a Tyrion when he was younger and wanted/did marry a peasant or a "Spicer" and he brother was like "No" so the Blackfish replied "Never".

But then again, why not just say so? Tyrion's story is well known. Why didn't Brynden and/or GRRM explain this mystery?

There's something fishy here. Whoops, sorry. :D

[dolorouseddwasright]

Why would anyone think that he's gay? His name is the blackFISH. That should be a telling clue that his proclivities swing towards more piscine tendencies.

I would rather be the Blackfish than the Floppy Fish. Sorry Edmure.

[ms1191]

I've always thought that his refusal to get married, alone, is a pretty poor argument for him being gay.

[Mike]

I think the Brynden/Lysa comparision is a good one and the comment that often springs to mind to me is when he says to Cat of Lysa something along the lines of.

"She'll marry only when she is ready and only to the one she loves."

If we take that as Brynden's own personal feelings on love in general, there's one thing we can say for sure about his sexual preferences and that is he is strictly monogamus. He's also as we know a deeply honourable man and not just for public opinion, even if he was having a secret lover Brynden's conscience won't allow him to live a public lie like marrying somebody he doesn't love - not like Renly.

I personally think Brynden is gay and I am going to advance a potential candidate as a theoretical longterm boyfriend. This man is about the same age as Brynden (late fifties/early sixties), renowned as both a great warrior and a honourable man and like Brynden as far as we know celibate.

I first hit on this theory when I reread the story of how Brynden went to guard the Gates of the Vale when Hoster declared for Robert. Therefore he never during the Rebellion ever crossed swords with any of the loyalists - people who read into this for a Dany-centric POV go 'Ah! Brynden must therefore be a closet Targ supporter'. My comment against that is 'well I think a man as contarian and honourable as Brynden if he was that strong in Targ loyalty would have into gone exile with Viserys and Dany'. I just think there is a far more personal, simpler and human answer for Brynden's actions and that is he feared he might have to fight the one he loved.

And who is this man I propose as Brynden's lover? Well we know GRRM loves his references to history and myth in Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert we already have a Paris, a Helen and a Menelaus, so what about an Achilles to Brynden's Patrocles? Or an Alexander to his Hephaesistion?

Their Troy is the War of the Ninepenny Kings and the three great heroes who are praised most highly are Brynden Tully, his brother Hoster and the knight I am proposing as his lover. I am actually not going to name him as I think as anyone who's been keeping up with me here know by now who I am talking about.

Anyway a few more clues and a little further 'cherry' in the gay theory to add. This knight is actually a white knight to first Jaerherys, then Aerys (which explains Brynden staying home during the Rebellion), then Robert and finally Daenerys. Then the 'cherry'; before he served Jaerherys this knight was his father's heir and when he joined the King's Guard (as Loras Tyrell will attest the 'best closet' in Westeros) he abandoned his betrothed at the altar(which I believe is recorded in his entry in the White Book).

Pure speculation of course but great fun none the less! :)

After my first reread of AFFC a couple of weeks ago, this is the conclusion I came to, as well. To add to your theory, I also wonder why he wasn't in the Kingsguard, or even offered.

[Lord O' Bones]

This again? OK

Abridged response:

GRRM beat us over the head that Renly, Loras, Lyn Corbray were gay. And readers still habitually miss it.

Why on earth would he be so subtle about Brendan Tully that there is basically zero evidence for him being gay then? I'm 36 and unmarried. Maybe permanently so. Am I gay as a result?

Also Garlan Tyrell is the best fighter, Sandor Clegane is still alive, Syrio Forell is dead, and Brienne's word is Fl00b!

[Mike]

This again? OK

Abridged response:

GRRM beat us over the head that Renly, Loras, Lyn Corbray were gay. And readers still habitually miss it.

Why on earth would he be so subtle about Brendan Tully that there is basically zero evidence for him being gay then? I'm 36 and unmarried. Maybe permanently so. Am I gay as a result?

Also Garlan Tyrell is the best fighter, Sandor Clegane is still alive, Syrio Forell is dead, and Brienne's word is Fl00b!

Until about a week ago, I hadn't discussed the series on this board for about eight or so years, so a lot of this stuff is new to me. At least I didn't start a new topic.

To answer your question: GRRM hasn't been forthcoming with many details regarding the Blackfish's personal life. There is zero evidence of his sexuality in either direction, but he did make an odd decision, and until Martin gives us the reason for that decision, we're left to speculate. Homosexuality seems to be a simple answer. A homosexual relationship with Barristan Selmy is slightly more complicated, but ADWD is being released in about nine weeks, so I've got the ASOIAF conspiracy bug.

[Lord O' Bones]

Until about a week ago, I hadn't discussed the series on this board for about eight or so years, so a lot of this stuff is new to me. At least I didn't start a new topic.

To answer your question: GRRM hasn't been forthcoming with many details regarding the Blackfish's personal life. There is zero evidence of his sexuality in either direction, but he did make an odd decision, and until Martin gives us the reason for that decision, we're left to speculate. Homosexuality seems to be a simple answer. A homosexual relationship with Barristan Selmy is slightly more complicated, but ADWD is being released in about nine weeks, so I've got the ASOIAF conspiracy bug.

Fair enough. But I submit to you that... <redacted>

You know what? I'm being a jerk. Speculation is fun. Forget I said anything and my apologies for my jerkiness.

Except for the Garlan Tyrell being the best fighter part. :)

[Myrish swan]

Is the blackfish gay?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Oh dear God, yes. :leer:

Lame "technical" answer: As of yet, we have no clear answer as to the Blackfish's sexual orientation.

I think there's plenty of circumstancial evidence that he is. And for some reason, I've always been rooting for the Blackfish to have been having a love affair with Bariston Selmy at some point. (Though we've gotten no indications of homosexuality-- or indeed, any sexuality whatsoever-- on the part of Bariston the bold yet, I am not alone i speculating he and Brynden may have been lovers at some point.)

[Spring Bass]

Lyn Corbray isn't gay btw, he is a paedophile. Slight difference.

I'm pretty sure he's gay. One of the Cat chapters in AGoT in the Vale mentions that he's not drawn to the "charms of women" or something like that - basically stating that he's gay.

As for the Blackfish, I think he's asexual and loves the single life.

The fact is, as Alexia pointed out, if he were Lysa (not saying Lysa is a lesbian- she obviously is not), he would have no say or choice in the matter, but because a man's sword hand and military acumen are prized, he can do as he pleases even if it really is an affront to his household to stay unwed.

He did end up having to leave Riverrun, though, and spent most of his recent years in the Vale.