Disturbing elements of the GoT fandom

[aktarian]

Yeah, Ros is an interesting case. I totally see what they were trying to do, and it I think it's what you were describing here.

But I think in execution it just becomes silly and a little gross. She comes across as the bicycle of Westeros, everyone gets a ride! :rolleyes: It's just too much of a coincidence that a single whore would service all the major male characters. It breaks the suspension of disbelief for me.

Fair point. OTOH it could be implied that she gets around because she is new in town and hence a novelty and everybody wants to try it. Or that LF's girls are top quality and aimed at elite, discretion guaranteed.

Plus, we can assume a character is with a prostitute in other more subtle or simple ways, like seeing the girl acting detached to the guy she just finished having sex with and leaving right after, or having the man asking "what was your name again?" or, even more simple, we can see the girl getting payed.

OK, that could work, but such subtlety could easily be missed by less observant viewer.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

And you are wrong, imo. Without making the scene erotic there is no way to show the disconnect of Littlefinger's unexpected reaction when asked to join in, which was a major point of the scene. In fact, of all the "sexposition" scenes that have been listed, it is the scene where the sex was the most essential, and imo it's not even close. (Contrasted with this is the scene between Viserys and Doreah, where the need for sex was tangential at best).

*shrug*

It's a chicken vs. egg question so we will probably never know.

[Joanna vander Poele]

The OP is hilarious :bowdown:

[pleonasm]

Now, the artistic merits and flaws of such a scene are certainly up for debate, but anyone who says that the scene has "no purpose" other than its obvious T&A factor are, in my opinion, terminally clueless and not worthy of serious consideration. That such people seem to make up such a large percentage of the posters here is quite depressing to me indeed.

It not the purpose its all in the execution. That's the general outrage. Most of us were just bored with the scene. Monolouging is the laziest form of writing and unless its exceptionally well written (some of Shakespeare's soliquies) or delivered (Sean Bean reading the phone book would probably be compelling), it dragged the momementum and energy of the episode to a hault. It also plays as completely unnatural and false. It presumes I am willing to buy a brillant and ambitious minor Lord is willing to outline his world view and history to a Northern whore. I can't see it. The scene gets a big giant F for me.

[Ser Warpechowski]

The littlefinger sexposition scene was ridiculous. Here you have an awesome and important player of the game telling about his childhood trauma, one of the defining moments of his life and the reason for his search for power having to scream because two whores are screaming while pretending to give each other pleasure.

[csharpminor]

Yes, there's T&A, but honestly, watching Ros cleaning herself up and dabbing at the inside of her thighs isn't exactly sexy when the reason she's doing it is a very old man sitting there reminiscing about old days while she barely pays attention. It's a very unsexy scene to be nude in.

At least, it wasn't sexy for me, and I suspect the writers were basically subverting the sexiness of the character normally by having her involved in such a relationship, one that she sure wasn't excited by.

It's the same with the violence. We could have skipped seeing the nameless household butchered, but it sets a bold tone to the start of the episode.

^ Totally agree with this. I felt the same way, and I agree that using eroticism to portray a deeper point is absolutely fair game, but I'm not going to kid myself for the real reason behind this. HBO wants nudity and violence in the series, and they're going to put it in there when they want, because I guess they believe it will help people watch the show.

This reminds me of the famous Street Fighter 4 case, as stupid a comparison as this may seem, to me, it's very similiar. Before SF4 came out, nobody had any idea what it would be like.. And all of the sudden they release the game with the majority of the cast being from SNES's Street Fighter 2. To fans of all the games after SF2, it seemed a very strange move, especially due to how closely the SF4 characters resemble the SF2 animation.. But the point is, capcom probably did this to cater to the general population, who would see Dhalsim and be like "Hey remember that crazy dude from 1994? I'm buying this game." They needed something for non-previous fans or the general population to recognize and then have more motivation to get into the games. Doesn't mean I don't dislike them for that decision though.

I think the show has done fine in at least using the required nudity/eroticism to explain something about a character, or at least attempt to. The only one that seemed a bit strange to me was the Littlefinger scene, but it wasn't that bad in my opinion.

I think the violence is different. To me, if the show had less violence, it would be a bit disappointing. The book was gritty, graphic, and obviously very violent when violence took place. If the show was any less violent, I'd be surprised. In my opinion, the show is actually a bit less violent than the way I imagined the book, and most likely will be in the next few series. Nothing about the violence is strange to me, and I'm definitely not somebody to get excited over pointless violence. The Drogo tongue scene was about how I'd imagine Drogo would handle a situation like that. The grittiness of the violence is necessary in my opinion.. It's absolutely necessary to portray how real and gritty true violence is, if a fantasy series is going to give any weight to it's violent/fight scenes. I honestly thought Syrio should've moved alot quicker than he did, but I know that's asking way too much of the TV show, the guy who played him did fine. I just thought the difference in the level of speed he used with Arya and the level of speed he used when fighting the Lannister men could've been a bit more obvious, but it's asking for too much. I imagined it slightly different in this way when i read the book though, and I enjoyed reading it so much more because it truly gave me a sense of just how much he was holding back when playing around with Arya, and just how masterful he is (or was) when he really fights. Too much to ask though, haha. The Syrio scene was fine, just saying how gritty and furious the fight scenes end up being give alot more weight to their presence, and in Syrio's case, really helped how I viewed his character. When i read the books, this also gave alot more weight to how much Arya was surprised by just how great Syrio was at fighting, and the impact his entire character had on her.

[Wolfmage]

Some good counter-veiling arguments here addressing the usual outraged noises, thanks Ser Greguh et al. IMO the show’s use of sex and nudity is fairly tame and certainly not titillating in the sense the accusers believe. There are substantive (albeit minor) problems with this content, but it's mainly technical issues; some scenes are a bit chunky in their composition and dialogue, which is certainly not limited to the show’s sexual content, and it's fair to say that the show runners have been guilty of some laziness in going to the sexposition device so often as the main form of interior monologue. Some of those sex scenes should just be sex scenes IMO. But the rest is pretty unfair. The taste level is either equivalent to the books or much tamer. Indeed, most of the content in the show that is unthinkingly dubbed titillating is decidedly not titillating – precisely because it is robbed of any possible sensuality through heavy doses of casual abuse, and the overriding prism of driving-characters who are manifestly exploitative or detached.

For my money, the show runners haven't always succeeded technically, but their sensibility and purpose is entirely legitimate and should be celebrated: trying to show sex in the most non-idealistic manner possible, dislocating the new viewers and cementing the tone of the series and subverting the genre.

As for the sex sells meme, it's worth posting this 2008 study:

http://coms114.wikispaces.com/file/view/Phan+San+-+Consumer+responses+towards+sexual+and+nonsexual+appeals.pdf

SUNY Albany’s Sanjay Putrevu shows that the answer is a little more nuanced. Specifically' date=' Putrevu found that “low-involvement” consumers—those who do not perceive the advertised product as particularly relevant to their needs or interests—are more likely to respond positively to sexual advertising. In contrast, consumers who feel the product is relevant to their lives are likely to respond to more direct appeals about the product itself, rather than peripheral sexual appeals. Furthermore, consumers with a low “need for cognition”—those who do not enjoy or engage in complex thinking, or who are more susceptible to information overload—are more likely to respond to sexual appeals.

[/quote']

Seems about right to me. HBO is not a network culturally or monetarily driven by low-cognition, low-information casual viewers. Accordingly, it's grossly unfair to think they stand to benefit in any linear sense from the sexual content in the show. Not sharing the same sensibility doesn't mean they're only going beyond your personal comfort zone because of a crass grab for ratings.

It's true, the success of True Blood has probably tempted them to experiment with more genre material in a way that captivates new audiences. But that's not enough to go on to assign puerile and base motives to the producers, especially given the source material is positively brimming with depraved sexual content.

[Steel_Wind]

As for the sex - meh - there was lots in the book, too. Episode 7 aside, it was fine.

As for the violence, frankly, there isn't enough violence. Many battles have been skipped or shortened. Only one fight was added to the entire season; many others were removed.

If you think the TV series is doing justice to the battles and sword fights in the book? Not too sure which book you read, but it wasn't A Game of Thrones. There was a lot more swordplay, jousting and battles in the books -- and you should expect more in future seasons.

Not because they are "pandering" to the male fanbase; but because they are trying to do a faithful adaptation of the books. And those are the books; that's the source material.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I don't get complaints about the violence. I may be completely desensitized, but I think there should be more. The last Roz scene with Pycelle I did not consider a sex scene or overtly sexual. I noticed her fantastic rear, but that's it. The scene in the brothel did have me glancing at my boyfriend's crotch region.

I want more tongue's being ripped out and sword fights. I love that stuff.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't know what motive to ascribe the D&D and HBO over their decisions on nudity, sex and violence, but I'd be surprised if it was primarily to titillate 18-24 year old males. Even if the outcome of some of the scenes was just that.

I hope they take some of the criticism of the over-use of 'sexposition', and that there isn't a scene featuring Ros that doesn't also feature her vagina, and that doggy style seems to be all the rage in Martinworld, and refine how they present the sex and nudity. 90% of the sex and nudity I felt fit right in to the story and kept faith with the source material, so refinement is all that's needed, not a total re-think. The imbalance so far is really that the only female nudity we've seen is of pretty women, whereas 2 of the 3 full frontal male nudity shots were of homely men, and the other one was Theon who isn't a fangirl favourite either. So if they want more balance and reality they need some pretty boys and (definitely) some uncomely women.

As to the violence: I think it was pitched about right. There were probably only 3 scenes of violence that I'd rather my pre-teen son not see, the rest was more or less LOTR, but with red blood instead of Orc black. I don't know how that can be seen as excessively pandering to the young-adult male demographic.

The last Roz scene with Pycelle I did not consider a sex scene or overtly sexual. I noticed her fantastic rear, but that's it. The scene in the brothel did have me glancing at my boyfriend's crotch region.

Post-coital washing of the vagina, even with one's back to the camera is pretty overtly sexual IMO. It may not be a turn on, especially given you know it's essence of Pycelle she's washing off, but it's certainly sexual.

[Queen of Everything]

I'm wondering where in the hell all the teenage girls in the fandom came from. Like, not intelligent, mature teenage girls -- which I'm sure the younger ladies around here are, if there are any -- but the ones still on the cusp of watching the Disney Channel who take their tumblr follower count a tad too seriously. I literally cannot see anything, at all, period in this book/television series that would appeal to a kid that thinks Ke$ha and Selena Gomez are the height of culture in our current civilization.

The only theory I have is that they're a bleed-over from the zealous little girls in the True Blood fandom. (Again: there are adults that watch True Blood, but I'm talking a sizable minority.) You know, the ones that think all the dangerous romance and gore-filled sex is romantic, or something? The ones that won't read the books and post shirtless Bill all over their walls? The ones that just graduated from reading Twilight and Anne Rice? Those guys.

[Bronn Stone]

I'm wondering where in the hell all the teenage girls in the fandom came from. Like, not intelligent, mature teenage girls -- which I'm sure the younger ladies around here are, if there are any -- but the ones still on the cusp of watching the Disney Channel who take their tumblr follower count a tad too seriously. I literally cannot see anything, at all, period in this book/television series that would appeal to a kid that thinks Ke$ha and Selena Gomez are the height of culture in our current civilization.

The only theory I have is that they're a bleed-over from the zealous little girls in the True Blood fandom. (Again: there are adults that watch True Blood, but I'm talking a sizable minority.) You know, the ones that think all the dangerous romance and gore-filled sex is romantic, or something? The ones that won't read the books and post shirtless Bill all over their walls? The ones that just graduated from reading Twilight and Anne Rice? Those guys.

If GoT somehow misses out on this demographic, I am okay with that. Honestly, if it did too much to appeal to this demographic, it would lose the shlumpy middle-aged men demographic of which I am a part. And my group is the one with money - even if I am a tad bit short in that regard.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I'm wondering where in the hell all the teenage girls in the fandom came from. Like, not intelligent, mature teenage girls -- which I'm sure the younger ladies around here are, if there are any -- but the ones still on the cusp of watching the Disney Channel who take their tumblr follower count a tad too seriously. I literally cannot see anything, at all, period in this book/television series that would appeal to a kid that thinks Ke$ha and Selena Gomez are the height of culture in our current civilization.

The only theory I have is that they're a bleed-over from the zealous little girls in the True Blood fandom. (Again: there are adults that watch True Blood, but I'm talking a sizable minority.) You know, the ones that think all the dangerous romance and gore-filled sex is romantic, or something? The ones that won't read the books and post shirtless Bill all over their walls? The ones that just graduated from reading Twilight and Anne Rice? Those guys.

Wow way to stereotype.

It takes awhile to understand the tumbler/ONTD "lingo" but under the "squee"ing surface the ladies there are no less "mature" or "serious" than you or I are. Also I don't know any fan of the series from the demographic you describe that hasn't either picked up the books or plans to. Certainly no one "refuses" to read the books - please, prove me wrong.

"Kids these days! Don't understand how hard we had it when there was no TV show!"

"Get off my porch you young rascals! Shoo!".

Grr so sick of this.

[1000 Needles]

Honestly, I think it's a bit of stretch to blame the fandom for the sexposition in the show.

Ros is so forgettable that I have basically forgeotten about her after every scene she's been in. When I was watching the scene with Theon I never even noticed that it was the same girl that was with Tyrion. I did notice that she ended up with Littlefinger and Pycelle, but that was probably only because they showed her running off to Kings Landing. If it hadn't been for that, I probably wouldn't have even recognised the actress. In every scene she was the least interesting thing in it.

The most memorably sex scene for me has been the Renly/Loras scene. And the reason I like it is that it is actually something that is hinted at in the books, so it doesn't seem so out of place as those other scenes.

I love nekkid chicks as much as the next guy, but I don't watch GoT for the sex. ASOIAF features sex as a motivational force for the characters but there's very little eroticism in the sex shown. The most erotic moment I can think of in the books is Dany & Drogos wedding night where Dany gets horny as Drogo undresses her. And even that is undermined when we find out how brutal Drogo is in his lovemaking.

If you've wtched any of the HBO shows in the last 10 yearts or so you'll notice that there's a lot of rather graphic sex, stuff that would probably get an NC17 rating if it was in a movie. Sex is one of the things that HBO can show where they can go beyond the movie ratings system and the limitations of cable TV. Without the sex, GoT could be a cable TV show on FX.

Unfortunately, to adapt ASOIAF to the screen, shortcuts have to be taken to make the story possibly in a comopressed timeframe. Sexposition is one way to do this while cramming a little T&A into the mix to pander to the more casual HBO viewer who is used to a certain amount of sex.

Personally, I find the presence of Ros a distraction because it draws attention to somebody who shouldn't be there in the first place. I'd rather have seen 4 different whores. Right now the casual viewer might be inclined to believe that Ros is more important than Shae, due to the amount of screentime Ros has gotten, and that irks me (though not as much as the changes made to Shae's personality).

[csharpminor]

Agree about Ros getting too much screen time, but it doesn't really bother me. I really agree with having forgotten mostly about her after the scenes take place. It doesn't distract me a bit from the great parts of the series, and I figure as long as they just attempt to utilize the nudity in a way that fits the story then I won't really care. Like I said, the only one that seemed strange to me was the Littlefinger thing, and that's really only because the dialogue didn't seem to flow well while Ros was fuckin'. Maybe that was the point, it still wasn't that strange to me because it fits Baelish's character.

I think for the supposed requirements of the nudity/sex stuff with HBO and having had to cram the entire first book into 10 episodes, they did beyond awesome with the series.

[LadySansa]

I have chosen not to watch the HBO show for similar reasons. Still buying the book though! At first I was interested in the HBO show but after reading about all the gratuitous nudity on the board I decided to pass. Especially after hearing about the introduction of the characters of Jamie and Tyrion. Oh well. Maybe someday they will make a good movie series or something. I would be more than happy to watch a very good adaption of the books but it would be hard to make and probably really expensive.

[Dunnii]

I think I've read almost this entire forum the last few days, but this topic is the first to get me to post!

I'm not a prude, but to be honest, I feel the sexposition scenes cheapen the series, add nothing, and are rather annoying. I also find it uncomfortable when I'm trying to talk my teenage son into watching the show (so I can get him interested in the books.) :blush:

I see from reading this thread that this doesn't bother many of you, but it really seems clear to me that every time they used it, it struck me as sensationalism instead of good storytelling. That Littlefinger scene was ridiculous; I didn't care what he was saying... that was soft porn. The scenes with Tyrion have been fine -- we know he's a whoremonger and we don't have to watch him "doing" it. But yep, let's watch two girls getting it on!

I love the series; I'm working on the books (on the third); but I really hope we never get another scene like that next season.

[Wolfmage]

I swear more than half the people complaining about the sex are watching with a parent / child in the room, or are otherwise apologetically trying to entice a conservative friend to watch the show or whatever. Watching with a spouse or peer makes the experience completely different. You don't need to tap your leg through every scene, let alone apologise for anything.

[Wolfmage]

I have chosen not to watch the HBO show for similar reasons. Still buying the book though! At first I was interested in the HBO show but after reading about all the gratuitous nudity on the board I decided to pass. Especially after hearing about the introduction of the characters of Jamie and Tyrion. Oh well. Maybe someday they will make a good movie series or something. I would be more than happy to watch a very good adaption of the books but it would be hard to make and probably really expensive.

What's supposed to wrong with their introduction according to book purists?

I remember some people complaining that Tyrion was a one whore guy, but I don't think that complaint holds up particularly well. The viewer immediately got to see that Tyrion was a rogue who enjoys drinking and whoring, which is totally canon. We got to see there was genuine camaraderie between Tyrion and Jaime -- adding nuance to Jaime -- which is, again, canon. Even the conga line of whores was only there at Jaime's behest in an effort to get Tyrion to finish early so that he could be present at the Court of Winterfell. Okay, that latter part wasn't canon but it hardly seems something to get upset about unless you're someone who absolutely insists on a literally 1:1 retelling.

As for Jaime, I believe we first see him with Cersei in Kings Landing talking in an oblique way about Jon Aryan's death and their secret. That too seemed to be a pretty effective introduction to his character and the central mystery.

[lynxx]

Our problem is that simple sex really isn't simple at all. There is a heck of a lot of subtext both in our real lives and in the HBO show. I think the HBO adaptors are doing a teriffic job of compressing layers of meaning into every little bit of bare skin:

The Pycelle/Ros scene showed us most excellently that Pycelle plays a deep game with his mask of decrepit old fogey. Loved how he preened in the mirror and then hunched over before he left his chambers. It also shows that the smart whore from upcountry is totally outclassed in King's Landing. Littlefinger and the two whores scene told us that the master of manipulation had more going on than joining in a fun romp. Once again, Ros was outclassed. Follow this with the Cersei/Lancel scene -- begins to reveal Cersei's pathetic reliance on her physical attractiveness to manipulate people like the Kettleblacks. Lancel zinged her by asking what war was like "when she was young".

Naked people are non-people. Take their clothes away and you have demeaned them, like Viserys' casual treatment of his little sister at the bath scene. Captured slaves and Vietnam POWs experienced this as did Dobby, Harry Potter's house elf. Hodor is less than a fully functional human because he has not learned clothing modesty.

Personally, I would glady trade the Ros character for a good Battle of the Blackwater.