[ADWD SPOILERS] Why all the praise?

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

Well, at least for Fake-Aegon (Faekon *cough*) the age to be Ashara's son fits :cool4:

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

The real Aegon wouldn't be 20-- he was still an infant at the Sack of King's Landing in 283 AL, and Tyrion meets him in early 300 AL. He'd be 17, or maybe 18 at most.

Yeah, my mistake, I somehow have pegged him as three years old. Nevertheless, Young Griff still si perhaps too young.

[banditry]

I doubt he is fake. If so, they certainly fooled Tyrion, not easy to do. And if he's fake, then he certainly isn't aware of it. He gives commands, and they follow his commands - - if it was all a ruse, they wouldn't necessarily obey the "fake" Aegon.

I think it's reasonable that a switch might have been made in all that chaos when he was an infant.

[Kaitscralt]

So does "Aegon's" presence change previous reader theories about whether or not Varys was actually willing to send assassins after Daenerys when ordered to by Robert?

[Ran]

banditry,

They all believe he's Aegon as well. Connington, Duck, Lemore, etc. Even Aegon believes it. That's the beauty of telling a buch of people that this random infant is Aegon, once they believe it, why would they question it? It's not like he can give himself away.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I doubt he is fake. If so, they certainly fooled Tyrion, not easy to do. And if he's fake, then he certainly isn't aware of it. He gives commands, and they follow his commands - - if it was all a ruse, they wouldn't necessarily obey the "fake" Aegon.

I think it's reasonable that a switch might have been made in all that chaos when he was an infant.

Aegon doesn't know he's a fake.

[Lord Varys]

Well, the question is, would Illyrio give up a son of his own - the son of his beloved wife, for Varys's grand scheme to give peace to Westeros. We now know that Varys truly wants to serve the Realm - but we still don't know how he, a foreigner, should care that much about the people of Westeros rather than the people of Essos. And although it seems that Illyrio is just assisting Varys here, it makes little sense he would give up his own son for that.

'Mummer's dragon' obviously refers to Aegon. But this does not have to mean that he is false. It could also mean that he is just the dragon of the mummer - Varys's dragon. And that he is obviously. Daenerys is supposedly the Slayer of Lies. The cloth dragon is likely Aegon, and the blue-eyed King without a shadow is Stannis. But 'Slayer of Lies' does not refer to the fact that Stannis Baratheon is no Baratheon by birth, the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon and Cassana Estermont, and the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen. If refers to the fact that Stannis is not Azor Ahai, not to the legitimacy of his birth. So Aegon could very well be what he seems to be - but being the rightful King of Westeros does not make him Azor Ahai reborn. Just as Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn.

Connington hang around at the Golden Company for some time after the end of the Rebellion, true, but we don't know if Aegon was not still there with him, since he was a babe. Likely not with him in the Golden Company, but at a manse in one of the Free Cities, brought up by Connington. He does not mention Illyrio or Varys as his father, but Connington. Rhaegar is his 'true father'.

Connington leaving the GC finally and faking his death would mark the moment Varys decided that Aegon would be the real deal. He most likely had to make sure that Aegon was Rhaegar's son rather than Aerys's grandson, so it makes sense that they had to wait a few years until the boy was old enough to judge his character before making their plans.

The one thing that is problematic in this is the fact that Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to Daenerys, a real Targaryen, instead of Aegon. But this may have to do with what Varys believed about the promised prince prophecy. We learn that Jaehaerys II forced Rhaella and Aerys to marry because the ghost of High Heart told him that from their line would come the promised prince. But did she mean 'their line' or their children? If one of Aerys's children supposedly was the promised prince, Dany was the best guess after Rhaegar's death. And we still have no clue if/what Varys thinks about all this prophecy stuff.

Anyway, Varys saved Gendry from death. Why on earth should he let Aegon die?

[Slick Mongoose]

I doubt he is fake. If so, they certainly fooled Tyrion, not easy to do.

Why not? Silver hair, purple eyes, about the right age....

And if he's fake, then he certainly isn't aware of it. He gives commands, and they follow his commands - - if it was all a ruse, they wouldn't necessarily obey the "fake" Aegon.

Well of course he hasn't been told, neither would anyone else have been. The only people who know for sure would be Varys and Illyrio.

[Lord Varys]

The interesting thing is - why would Varys lie to the dying Kevan? He reveals his allegiance and his goals to him - along with the fact that he would rather kill him, but has no other choice. Why should he lie about Aegon? Of course, this would have revealed the truth to the reader as well. But it would have been out-of-character for Varys, I think.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I doubt he is fake. If so, they certainly fooled Tyrion, not easy to do.

Or did they? Tyrion won the mystery of Aegon's identity from Haldon and we don't really know if he believes this story. After Aegon gets a tantrum after losing at cyvasse Tyrion thinks "he may well be a Targaryen after all" which would indicate he wasn't fooled.

[mysh]

The interesting thing is - why would Varys lie to the dying Kevan? He reveals his allegiance and his goals to him - along with the fact that he would rather kill him, but has no other choice. Why should he lie about Aegon? Of course, this would have revealed the truth to the reader as well. But it would have been out-of-character for Varys, I think.

For the birds are there and listening.

[Lord Varys]

They won't talk. Even those who can talk.

[Slick Mongoose]

Varys is nothing if not careful, if Aegon is fake why would he ever say so out loud? Why ever mention it to anybody? I doubt he'd even talk about it with Illyrio, their conversations would talk about him as the real Aegon.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Or did they? Tyrion won the mystery of Aegon's identity from Haldon and we don't really know if he believes this story. After Aegon gets a tantrum after losing at cyvasse Tyrion thinks "he may well be a Targaryen after all" which would indicate he wasn't fooled.

Yeah, I always got the impression that Tyrion was skeptical of the whole story. IIRC, he says at one point that Aegon has to marry Daenerys in order to prevent whispers that Aegon is not really who he claims to be.

[Misanthrope]

Have the reviewers been a tad overzealous in their reviews about Dance? Don't get me wrong, I like the overall story, I like were things are going, I like the prose, I like the twists. But there are a number of things that keep this book far short of the original 3 imo.

1. The cheap endings. I was willing to accept them in Feast because it was half a book, but I feel it is very un-GRRM like to end a full chunk of the story in this way. In GoT, CoK and SoS we get major game changing twists, but in all cases we get the fallout immediately afterwards. Having Jon be stabbed in his last chapter was just unfair. It would be like Game ending at Ned's execution, or Clash ending with the arrival of Stannis' ships, or Storm ending at the Red Wedding, or Joffrey's Wedding, or Tyrion's trial.

2. All the padding. This directly relates to the above point, in that if GRRM had maybe kept the story a bit tighter, there would have been room at the end of the book to give a proper conclusion. Dany goes through a lot more in her 11 Clash/Storm chapters then she does in these 10, Jon certainly goes through a lot more in his 12 Storm chapters than in these 13, and holy crap does Tyrion go through a lot more in his 11 Storm chapters than he does in these 12. I know a lot of people, Elio/Linda included, have said they like more page time dedicated to nice prose and character development and world building etc, which I appreciate, but was ANYONE complaining about a lack of these things before Feast came out?

3. The Aegon twist. Maybe I missed something and people will be able to counter this one and make me look dumb, but I find it hard to accept this revelation. I like it, I like the fact a major character is brought back from the dead, I like the implications it results in and what is going to lead from it. But why on earth was Varys/Illyrio sending Viserys off to conquer Westeros if they had his nephew, who has a much better claim, in training? Why not TELL Viserys? What would they had done if his Dothraki bargain had actually worked out, and he invaded the Seven Kingdoms without consulting them? Wait until he is on the throne and then reveal his older brother's heir is alive? Would he have relinquished the seat after shedding blood to win it back? Would he even believe their claim that he really was Aegon? I'm not one to believe that GRRM ever pulls major stuff like this out of thin air, but it would have been nice for these things to have been explained.

DwD was the last straw for me, I just wish I'd figured out this entire series is a waste of time years ago. :tantrum:

[banditry]

Yeah, I always got the impression that Tyrion was skeptical of the whole story. IIRC, he says at one point that Aegon has to marry Daenerys in order to prevent whispers that Aegon is not really who he claims to be.

If I recall though, in Tyrion's later POVs, he learns of the GC's landing on Westeros and he never considers or dwells on the possibility that Aegon might be a fake.

The whole thing just seems out of character for Varys to create a fake Aegon; rescue him, yes. I dunno. Time will tell, I suppose. I think he's the real deal.

[Ran]

Varys never lies. He just says that Aegon has arrived. That's the boy's name, isn't it? ;)

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

If I recall though, in Tyrion's later POVs, he learns of the GC's landing on Westeros and he never considers or dwells on the possibility that Aegon might be a fake.

He doesn't dwell on it because GRRM doesn't want to make the reveal yet, just hint at the possibility to foreshadow the later reveal.

[Whitering]

I am not sure where I stand on Aegon, he is almost certainly the Mummer's Dragon. After all, what is Varys if not a Mummer, and "Aegon" is his creation.

When Quentyn died I was really annoyed that I had been made to read a whole bunch of irrelevant material. He did not advance the plot AT ALL. When Ned died he had served a great purpose. In fact, he did a lot of things. We saw his influence on the kids. He got Arya some very important training that continues to serve her well. I was happy she remembered Syrio's teachings.

Robb had done a great number of things, mostly weakening the North, the grand finale of that being the Red Wedding of course.

If Jon is dead, well, he also served a purpose. He is the only member of the Night's Watch who could make peace with the Wildlings. It will be interesting to see how that develops. Was that a homage to Ceasar or what?

Did Stannis die off screen? If all that is left up north is those who are evil, I am now cheering for the Others to crush everything down to King's Landing.

I will make a more careful reading of the book at a later time but in general I was pleased, not ecstatic.

Things I really liked were:

Bran's storyline reaching the Children quickly, I had worried it would take a long time. I was convinced the Children still existed and was gratified to see them. Seeing Bloodraven was something I was prepared for after some convincing arguments here on the board.

Arya. I love Arya, and I loved her chapters, but I am a bit confused. Why do they keep moving her on in her training if they know she is still "Arya". She still chews her lip, I am convinced they are suspicious about her being a warg, and obviously she is not "no one". Nevertheless, I enjoyed her chapters and wish there were more. We could have done without the entire Quentyn storyline.

The Mereen knot, I was happy with GRRM's solution. Is Dany on her way to Asshai? I am not really clear where she is headed. Hopefully she gets to kill her enemy Khal's. Of course, they left before knowing about the dragons, maybe they wouldn't have been so quick to do so. In any case, she is not likely to forgive their trespasses.

Jon's story was necessary, but a bit drawn out for all that was accomplished.

There was a lot of treading water in this book. All the stuff with Val, and her going to find Tormund and the sending of ships up to get the Wildlings. That all took up a lot of pages, but I am not sure it made any difference. Tormund could have just come to the wall and those Wildlings need not have existed at all.

Still, 7.5 out of 10 for me. Feast was an 8.

[Lord Varys]

Well, this can only be revealed if the dragons arrive in Westeros eventually, and do not like Aegon. But so what? It's not really important if Aegon is real or false. He is the way better king than Tommen and Stannis, and I'm sure we are going to see that.

By the way, it was Connington's sickness which decided that the GC would go to Westeros. Strickland would never have gone along with Aegon's suggestion if Connington had opposed him. He has not the balls for such a move alone. And Connington would not have lived to set a foot on Westeros or see Aegon on the Iron Throne, if they had gone to Meereen first. So the course was clear from the moment of Connington's infection and when they learned that Daenerys was not coming.

Tyrion's suggestion shows that Aegon is young, and hungry and willing to prove himself. That is no surprise.