Jojen Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Maybe Bloodraven will make Jojen be his replacement, and BR will then finally be able to die. Jojen could fear that more than death, because he could never go home again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the Black Kitten Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 There are definitely hints that Jojen has been made into the paste but it seems really odd to me that Bloodraven and the children of the forest would do something that they must know would turn Bran against them; I can't see Bran being happy to work with the people who killed his friend and tricked him into eating him! Basically they've powered him up and simultaneously made him their enemy, it doesn't seem like a smart move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 There are definitely hints that Jojen has been made into the paste but it seems really odd to me that Bloodraven and the children of the forest would do something that they must know would turn Bran against them; I can't see Bran being happy to work with the people who killed his friend and tricked him into eating him! Basically they've powered him up and simultaneously made him their enemy, it doesn't seem like a smart move.He may be quite upset at first, but what is he going to do about it? He's a crippled boy and a very novice greenseer, Plus for the most he part cares more about his own wants and needs than those of his party members. Not saying he is bad or evil, just saying he's a 9 yo kid from a wealthy and powerful family that has usually gotten what he wanted and is a bit used to it. He'd get over Jojen being dead and eaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verboten Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't find this theory plausible. Everything in Bran's chapters is creepy and points to something bad happening, but nummy Jojen paste is not one of them. The weirwoods have been described as having red sap since the first book, in Catelyns first chapter,so the Children feeding Bran a magical paste made out of weirwood seeds and sap is a very good explanation for the unsettling red veins in said paste. Since that is essentially the only reason why people think the paste contains Jojen's blood, I find this theory hard to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't find this theory plausible. Everything in Bran's chapters is creepy and points to something bad happening, but nummy Jojen paste is not one of them. The weirwoods have been described as having red sap since the first book, in Catelyns first chapter,so the Children feeding Bran a magical paste made out of weirwood seeds and sap is a very good explanation for the unsettling red veins in said paste. Since that is essentially the only reason why people think the paste contains Jojen's blood, I find this theory hard to swallow.Yes, they have been describing the sap in that way since the first book. What if weirwood sap is actually blood? How would that change your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verboten Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Yes, they have been describing the sap in that way since the first book. What if weirwood sap is actually blood? How would that change your opinion?It wouldn't change. The weirwoods have always been described as disturbingly human, to the point where their leaves actually resemble human hands. Finding out that they may also have people permanently bonded to them is creepy as hell, but actually fits with the information we've been given. I don't know how Jojen or Meera will die but GRRM has spent so much time building up the characters and their relationships with Bran that it's difficult for me to think that he's died offscreen, for something that has never been mentioned or even alluded to before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It wouldn't change. The weirwoods have always been described as disturbingly human, to the point where their leaves actually resemble human hands. Finding out that they may also have people permanently bonded to them is creepy as hell, but actually fits with the information we've been given. I don't know how Jojen or Meera will die but GRRM has spent so much time building up the characters and their relationships with Bran that it's difficult for me to think that he's died offscreen, for something that has never been mentioned or even alluded to before.Well, it was alluded to quite a bit in some people's opinions, and he may not die offscreen, I'm sure we will get some sort of description if it did happen. The Reeds in all honestly are far from the most fleshed characters in the books, in fact we know very little about them at all. If you agree that the sap might be blood, where does that blood come from? Most likely a human sacrifice or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baffledchump Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Just wrote a load up on this subject HERE, check it out if you got a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 If you agree that the sap might be blood, where does that blood come from? Most likely a human sacrifice or something similar.Why would they need to sacrifice someone for a little bit of blood in a bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Why would they need to sacrifice someone for a little bit of blood in a bowl?In the context I am talking about weirwood sap being in reality blood, not referring to cup O Jojen. Plus I think the power is in the sacrifice, not just the blood. Reminiscent of the conversation Melisandre and Stannis have on Dragonstone about Edric Storm's sacrifice vs. leaching him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Plus I think the power is in the sacrifice, not just the blood. Reminiscent of the conversation Melisandre and Stannis have on Dragonstone about Edric Storm's sacrifice vs. leaching him.The power is in the blood. King's blood has power, so it was down to burning a leech with some of his blood in it, vs burning him entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Just wrote a load up on this subject HERE, check it out if you got a minute.Excellent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 The power is in the blood. King's blood has power, so it was down to burning a leech with some of his blood in it, vs burning him entirely.Yes, exactly, there is more power in taking the life and using the blood rather than just leaching him. She was afraid leaching him would not work as intended, but that burning him alive along with all his blood and everything else would most assuredly work. baffledchump wrote an excellent post which holds many of the same views I have on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkenspeton Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Jojen is technically a guest. Do cotf observe guestright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Jojen is technically a guest. Do cotf observe guestright?Oooooh.Guest right is a law of the Old Gods (and the new). The Children follow the Old Gods. Guest right should apply here.Is it breaking guest right if you try to sacrifice your guest? What if the guest is okay with it (or at least, doesn't try to stop you)?Guest right is probably the strongest argument I've yet seen against the "Jojen's in the paste" theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Lady Ashalind Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Guest right is probably the strongest argument I've yet seen against the "Jojen's in the paste" theory.Totally agree with that and would like to add Jojens remarks from ADWD (US Harcover- pg449):"It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see , as the gods see", said Jojen. Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done."Jojen knows from his greendreams when he and I think how he will die. If he needed to die or be sacrificed to further Brans abilities then his "task" would not be complete until then. Yet, above he himself says his part is done.Jojen paste is off the table for me.As a side note-- Brans chapters with COTF were eerie and reminded me of Ygritte and her stories about Gendels children . Anyone else get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Just wrote a load up on this subject HERE, check it out if you got a minute.Thank you for this analysis, very nicely put, I think you have it right. Reading the chapters in the cave I got the sense of a buildup to doom - and went back to a similar build-up, the chapter of the events at the Red Wedding. The way GRRM uses repetition of in that case sound made my skin crawl and awaiting something evil. I had the same feeling in the chapter in ADWD in the cave, the subtle hints I thought were fed (the bones, Jojen's attitude, Meera's nervousness, the associations with sacrifice and the moon). Well, we'll have to wait and see till the next book is out to know what happened, but if this was another use of GRRM's build-up technique for doom it definitely worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostcause Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Even if it was Jojens blood, why would they need to kill him?There wasn't a pint of "blood" in that paste after all, a little cut on the arm and they are set?I'm not sure the COFT are with the others. They fought against them in the first war, so clearly the Others have no love for them either.However they have also come to see that Men are killing magic - so they could just be doing their own Littlefinger intrigue! Who says it's only in Kingslanding that is allowed?Maybe they seek to destroy both the Others and Men, and return magic to the world. Bring the unicorns and the rainbows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Jojen knows: When he will die, but that doesn't mean he won't live for a long time, nothing was indicated it was actually close. Jojen's worries and fears could be for the moment and for the group as a whole.Jojen says that the wolves will return, dosn't say what form but indications are the Starks will meet how many live ???? hopefully all but not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingsGoldenHand Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 well the children are obviously druidic nature worshippers. to them jojen is becoming a part of bran, who will "become" a tree. it will soak up water and grow stronger roots, becoming part of the ecosystem. seeds will fall and create new trees . The Circle of Life if you will. It's not as bad an ending for Jojen as many people are making it out to be....well depending on what happens with Bran's warging by the song's conclusion. I'll take that over most characters' untimely fates in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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