When did Daenerys Targaryen become your least favourite character?

[Maester Nikolas]

Westeros is a harsh place- and the people there think about the ends, not the means. You can't be a ruler in Westeros without getting your hands dirty, or maybe you can, but when you get really deep in it you'd probably end up like Ned. At a certain point, you need to start choosing between the lesser of two evils. While what Dany did is not morally justifiable, and was not well thought through, the alternative was having Meereen being to get even more testy than before, and inaction would probably lead to increased activity from the Harpy's Sons. In any case, there was no clean way out of that situation that didn't end with more open bloodshed.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Because she ordered the crucifixion of those people and never cared to know if all of them were guilty or not, so it's very likely that innocent people died too since she doesn't even know who her enemies are. I don't know how disliking what she did makes me like what the slavers did with the children, I dont follow that logic, sorry, in my book, what she did was as terrible as what they did. Whatever, reading your last sentence, we're never gonna agree about this.

I understand where you're coming from, and normally I would agree, but the world of ASoIaF is not 21st century America. It is a dark, harsh, brutal place and our normal lines of reasoning should be suspended when reading these books or we would forever be shocked and appalled at what happens in the novels. You state that some of these slavers might have been innocent in this particular incident but they most certainly knew about the child crucifixions. They were also slavers who used and abused innocent people as their fathers and their fathers' fathers have done for centuries before.

Justice was demanded and a life for a life seems fair to me, in this world.

[Maester Nikolas]

After the Red Wedding, I think most of us realized we weren't on Earth [Or in a HF novel with 21^st century values and views], anymore. Either that, or after Ned died. I haven't looked at books, or the world, the same way since. Curse my shallow views of 'The good guys win in the end' pertaining to literature! Well, GRRM fixed that, so thank-you sir. Either that, or I should be hiring an FM to get rid of him in vengeance for the Starks, one of the other. I'll go with the first I think. :P

[Black Wind]

Dany is not my least favourite character. I enjoy her story arc (yes I have read ADWD) and when I read the books for the first time, I honestly thought that Dany on the Iron Throne would mean a happy ending for the series. But then her last chapter in ASoS happened and there her whole behaviour is so wrong on so many levels that I stopped rooting for her character.

First there is of course the famous incident with the 163 crucified slavers. Yes, of course people who crucify children should be punished. A lot. But I think it's important to closely read the buildup to the crucifying scene:

When Dany enters Meereen, people have to clear a path for her because the dead are heaped so high that the gate is blocked. While riding through the city she sees destroyed buildings and dead people everywhere. Then she encounters the surviving Meereenese, who are not some evilly cackling slavers but a bunch of old frightened people. And finally this:

„I want your leaders“, Dany told them. „Give them up and the rest of you will be spared.

„How many“, one old woman asked, sobbing. „How many must you have to spare us?“

„One-hundred and sixty-three“, she answered.

So in my book, sacking the city -they had it coming. Additionally crucifying 163 people only happened because Dany wanted to feel an avanging dragon and congratulations – the Sons of the Harpies were probably born that very moment.

Another disturbing incident is the captain who asks her permission to buy the Meereenese who want to sell themselves as slaves. First Dany is shocked that people want to be slaves at all (note that she is NOT shocked that there are people who would rather be slaves than staying in a place that is ruled by the Dragon Queen). When she is told by Missandei that "in Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price each time a slave changed hands“ she decides that this is a good idea because "wars are won with gold as much as swords“. Seriously, WTF? She just destroyed three cities because she wanted to put an end to slavery. But one of her very first day as queen of Meereen, she decides to actively profit from slave trade. Because the „Breaker of Chains“ needs money. Way to go Dany...

And it's not even that she needs the money at this moment. During the same scene Dany notices that even the sellswords are statisfied for a change because the city was so rich.

I also don't like how she handles the situation with Jorah and Selmy. She should have talked to them first privately and separately, then think about what she heard and THEN judging them in open court. Instead Dany decides to play royal court in her new city, which results in her new subjects learning that their queen's most trusted advisor worked for people who wanted to kill her and that her whole family is probably insane.

Later in that chapter, she takes Jirri to bed although earlier in the book she told her handmaid that she does not expect that kind of service from her: „You're no bed slave, remember? I freed you...“

Again, what happened to her principles?

And the last straw is Barristan, who offers to talk to her privately about her family. Since Dany is too upset to listen to him then, Barristan agrees that he will wait until she is ready. Which is fair enough - but the very next day she announces that she wants to stay in Meereen and learn to rule. But if she wants to be a real queen, the time to learn more about her family and what a good Targ should do or not do is pretty much now. Yet she does not try to talk with Barristan again until very much later in ADWD (if she asks him at all...I cannot remember at the moment unfortunately).

That being said, I did like her DWD story arc, I still have some hope for Dany and I can understand that her magic dragons and her special prophecies and her very own worshippers mess up her head. I am also looking forward to her WoW chapters because at the end of ADWD she is completely on her own for the very first time and that might help her to accept a few hard truths about herself. Or not. In any case, there has to be a lot to happen before I will be convinced that she is actually good news for Westeros.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Because she ordered the crucifixion of those people and never cared to know if all of them were guilty or not, so it's very likely that innocent people died too since she doesn't even know who her enemies are. I don't know how disliking what she did makes me like what the slavers did with the children, I dont follow that logic, sorry, in my book, what she did was as terrible as what they did. Whatever, reading your last sentence, we're never gonna agree about this.

As far as I know innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist in this world.

[The Oncoming Storm]

When she hit Jorah. *hugs bear protectively*

[Sevumar]

You state that some of these slavers might have been innocent in this particular incident but they most certainly knew about the child crucifixions. They were also slavers who used and abused innocent people as their fathers and their fathers' fathers have done for centuries before.

Justice was demanded and a life for a life seems fair to me, in this world.

We don't know what they knew or didn't know. We can't say so with any certainty and that's largely because Dany made no effort to ascertain the guilt of these people before she had them murdered. There was no investigation and no trial, merely a demand that their peers turn over 167 people. This kind of behavior doesn't rise to the level of justice. It's nothing more than vengeance.

This bothers me even more than it might because, earlier in the same book, Dany complains that Robert "did no justice" when she speaks about the murder of Elia and her children. It seems to me that if she really felt this way, she'd give more thought as to what justice is and how it is properly administered. Instead, what we get is a child who likes to decide judicial matters on gut feelings and without applying consistent standards or rules.

[JKeats]

Her time in Meereen is meant to give her practice for when she comes into the Iron Throne.

How nice it must be to have a practice round at ruling. Maybe we could give her a second one. She should fly to Vaes Dothrak and reign there for a few years decades.

[Maester Nikolas]

Yes but she's as much a child as Robb was- the only difference is Dany has some more morally ambiguous situations to deal with, we sympathize with the Starks more, [Especialy with regards to her father] and she doesn't have as much education as Robb in the way of politics. In any case, she is just as silly as Robb, but knows less, and has less of our sympathy.

[EgoistMusketeer]

When she started banging Daario...

[Jon Flowers]

I don't hate her, but her storyline has become tedious since she became ruler of Meereen. Her time is taken up by a flood of banal task such as apparently acting as a civil judge and "counting coppers". This is where she begins to come apart somewhat. Like so many before her she seems to be far less gifted at ruling than at conquering. I think that we're meant to see parallels between her and king Robert as Sevumar alluded to. One of Martin's overarching themes in this series seems to be (I've heard him touch on it in interviews as well) that ruling a nation is far more difficult than winning one and the human cost to the "small folk" is nearly always ruinous be it in Meereen or Westeros. So, like I said, she becomes far less compelling when her chapters begin to deal with her rule of Meereen and things get a bit dull rather than due to any of her several poor or questionable decisions. You can also liken her develpment to Jon's; dinamic action, changing to mundane decision making (read responsibility) and perhaps excessive introspection. And the reason for all of this detail is a specific thematic choice by Martin, as I said above.

[Sevumar]

Yes but she's as much a child as Robb was- the only difference is Dany has some more morally ambiguous situations to deal with, we sympathize with the Starks more, [Especialy with regards to her father] and she doesn't have as much education as Robb in the way of politics. In any case, she is just as silly as Robb, but knows less, and has less of our sympathy.

I wouldn't say she has less of our sympathy. For much of the story, it seems like we're intended to sympathize with Dany more than many of the PoVs. Of all the major characters, her enemies are the least grey and so cartoonishly evil that it detracts from the realism that Martin is often lauded for. Yes, Robb has more education and preparation, and that helps him in the area where he succeeds most (battle), but he suffers from the same kind of immaturity and inexperience in the political aspects of leadership as Dany. The only real difference is that his enemies were more competent and more successful in bringing him down, in contrast with Dany.

[Jon Flowers]

This may be off topic a bit, but it would've been cool to see her look for trade partners far sooner than she did. That and maybe setting up a court system of somekind and starting building projects to repair the city and employ former slaves would've freed her time up to be more interesting. It would have been nice to see her working with the dragons a bit more and definately talking to ser Baristan about her familiy history, rather than acting as a small claims court judge. She might at least have presided over significant cases only. She got bogged down far too much in minutia.

[King Bronn l]

I wouldn't say she has less of our sympathy. For much of the story, it seems like we're intended to sympathize with Dany more than many of the PoVs. Of all the major characters, her enemies are the least grey and so cartoonishly evil that it detracts from the realism that Martin is often lauded for. Yes, Robb has more education and preparation, and that helps him in the area where he succeeds most (battle), but he suffers from the same kind of immaturity and inexperience in the political aspects of leadership as Dany. The only real difference is that his enemies were more competent and more successful in bringing him down, in contrast with Dany.

Thats a good point, it seems like the only half way competent enemies Dany has faced, have been the Sons of the Harpy.

[_Oberyn_]

Started to dislike her when Drogo died but i thought she would get her act togather eventualy, but since Mereen shes just a bad fucking joke, and much more so then Viserys. I'll throw a big fucking party when she dies, and trust me she will die, GRRM has not disapointed us yet and I dont think he will on this one. I just hope is very vey veeeeeeeery painfull.

[Maester Nikolas]

Now that is just unfair. Writing style and literary device have nothing to do with character. On a more humorous note you are using the name of the man who set up a rebellion against Robert to put the Targaryens back on the throne [And get vengeance for his sister]

@Sevumar & King Bronn I- Good points, the Slavers and the people of the East are in general quite ridiculous. For that matter, the Harpy's Sons are only really succeeding because there's I) Too many of them & II) she doesn't know who they are or who commands them.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

This may be off topic a bit, but it would've been cool to see her look for trade partners far sooner than she did. That and maybe setting up a court system of somekind and starting building projects to repair the city and employ former slaves would've freed her time up to be more interesting. It would have been nice to see her working with the dragons a bit more and definately talking to ser Baristan about her familiy history, rather than acting as a small claims court judge. She might at least have presided over significant cases only. She got bogged down far too much in minutia.

I think the tedium of ruling a nation is the point. It's all fun and glory when you conquer but the actual day to day governance of the realm is mundane. Robert couldn't handle it. Cersei despised it. Dany at least attempted to give a go at it but in the end the resentments of the people against her is too much. I don't see any other ending for her time in Meereen to end BUT in bloodshed. They will never accept her there because it is not her home. I think she'll finally realize this early on in the next book.

[stannis halfelven]

[robespierre]

When she was born.

The calculus:

1) Is it a 'noble'?

2) Is it insisting on its 'rights'?

3) The guillotine awaits.

[/robespierre]

Alternatively:

I just can't stand the diminutive 'Dany'. Kill it with Ice (after it's reforged). Far too precious a referent. And it's all over the the pages of her chapters.

Ameliorations:

Whilst I find Daenarys totally unappealing, she at least comes across to me as a character, fully drawn, and thus is in a different category to the cackling villains of the work (Joffrey, Cersei, Ramsey, misc slaver aristocrats, etc).

She's the one facet of the series I wish did not exist, rather than the most odious member of the cast.

[King Bronn l]

I think the tedium of ruling a nation is the point. It's all fun and glory when you conquer but the actual day to day governance of the realm is mundane. Robert couldn't handle it. Cersei despised it. Dany at least attempted to give a go at it but in the end the resentments of the people against her is too much. I don't see any other ending for her time in Meereen to end BUT in bloodshed. They will never accept her there because it is not her home. I think she'll finally realize this early on in the next book.

Also she's being bogged down, because she doesn't know how to rule. You have clerks to handle shit like recompense for sheep, and whatnot. It's not something a ruler is supposed to do all the time, maybe every once in awhile, but not every freaking day. The Meerenese were burying her in paperwork, (metaphorically) and she was letting them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually liked her quite a bit in Game of Thrones and tolerated her kind of boring storyline in Clash of Kings. In Storm of Swords, I remember being skeptical at how easy she was having it and thinking that what she did in Astapor was pretty low and could come back to bite her later. And after Dance of Dragons and all of the cruel and/or idiotic decisions she made, I wouldn't shed a tear if Drogon ate her.

Everyone else has pretty much said whatever I would have: She has no idea who it was she actually crucified (she later marries Hizdahr; wonder how much he knew about the crucified slave children?), she tortures people for information systematically, she's indecisive at the worst times, she's entitled and immature, she can't take good advice, she has blinders on when it comes to her family, on and on and on. Her city is starving and the Astapori are starving and yet she always seems to have plenty of lamb and fruit and whatever else she eats. I also think that by pitting her against foes who are either incompetent or easily bought off, Martin is lulling readers into a false sense of security by making them think she's more clever or competent than she really is. Put her up against a Tywin Lannister or a Randyll Tarly and see how she does. And after seeing her justify everything she does by saying, "I have dragons!" or "I'm the blood of the dragon!" I just want to see her do a karmic faceplant. Someone should tell her that "dragons" in her family tend to chug wildfire to attempt to set cities on fire.

Oh and there's also the matter of her sitting opposite the Green Grace, aka The Goddamn Harpy, and stupidly blurting out every dumbass idea and strategy that pops into her head while they share honeyed figs. "Oh no, I could never hurt the hostages, they're so sweet." And the Grace has to be thinking, "Can you believe this shit?"