I think Tommen would actually make a great king...

[Dornish Bannerman]

He will probably not surive the game of thrones, his eyes will be eaten by his cats...

He is a puppet for the players, merely a device to move around for the real players liking. And besides, Stannis is coming!!!

[I'll pay the iron price]

Tommen could grow to be a good King if Cersei is removed from him and his "Uncle" Jaime is there for him.

He could sure use Tyrion too

[Ser Lepus]

We don´t know what kind of person will Tommen become when he is older; he could become too meek, or be a fool, or a coward, or unable to control his urges (that is, a whoring drunkhead like king Robert)...of course, he seems an obedient and eager to please kid, so it would be possible to educate him so he wouldn´t become one of those things.

[Crown]

What the...? He is eight years old and likes cats. I like cats, too and i think that is not really something strange for a guy. :D He wants to be a knight and learn fighting and jousting. And he loves stamping. I think that's pretty standard for a boy.

Not only because he likes kittens, I always considered him to be gay, I don't know why, just his overall appearances in the books.

EDIT: I have nothing against gay-people, so don't worry!

[littleRickon]

Tommen could grow to be a good King if Cersei is removed from him and his "Uncle" Jaime is there for him. He could sure use Tyrion too

Are you guys serious? Jamie? Tyrion?

I get the part about removing Cersei as his mother and regent, but what in the world is out there suggesting Jamie would be a good father? He has his whole redemption arc, which makes him likable as a guy, but as a father... seriously

1) he pushes Bran out the window on a mere impulse. Not the kind of mindset you want in a king. Neither the violence nor the lack of control over himself

2) he doesn't give a shit about Tommen. He doubts himself if his lack of emotion towards the kids is normal, but in the end he finds he thinks of them as squirts in Cersei's belly (or something the like)

3) he is 100% pure self-absorbed arrogance. Yeah, he is was the best swordsman around, but the whole I am better than anyone and can step into anyone's face if it means a shortcut to my next cookie thing is another attitude that insta-disqualifies him as a king-shaper parent

and don't even start about Tyrion... He has some serious issues, both with sexuality and with power, and even if he cared enough to try and make a good king and not a good pawn to be king through by himself, I doubt he has the emotional capabilities for the task...

Cersei, especially ADwD Cersei, is batshit crazy and power-hungry, but at least she loves her kids. If she were to step down as regent and could restrain herself from the power games and only concentrate on being a parent, she'd be the best one of the three siblings.

I also think it's too early to ask about Tommen's ability to be king. He is 8. We have no idea how he will turn out with 16. Give him a Tyrion-like "sharp lesson" at 13 and he'll be thrown off his course to becoming a gentle human and caring human being.

[Jolene Brown]

I agree and I don't see what Varys sees as the difference between Young Griff/Aegon, whose claim is also hereditary and who would presumably intend to bequeath the throne to his heirs, and Tommen. Young Griff/Aegon has been taught to be a good king by his advisers? Tommen can be taught that too, by his own good advisers (clearly Varys thinks Kevan is a positive force, that's why he has to get rid of him). It's an odd distinction to make.

I really hope Tommen won't have to die - I think even GRRM may be getting tired of showing kids being murdered (and he hasn't ever really killed a kid character that we knew well and had actually seen in action who wasn't totally evil like Joffrey - the only innocents who are dead for real are the miller's kids, Robert's unnamed bastards, the Targaryen children from before the series started, and the Lannister/Frey squires who we had never met. Podrick is probably not really dead), but I could see him wiping out Tommen or Myrcella with one of the diseases he's introduced/re-introduced into the story. I hope not though.

However, I think it's unlikely Tommen will stay on the throne. To me, Jaime's POV in ADWD seems to indicate that he has decided to tell Tommen the truth about his parentage, because he says "I will need to tell Myrcella too." I am actually really curious about how Tommen will/would react to that. I just don't think there is a solid enough foundation/base of power for Tommen to stay King. Cercei's insistence on making his one logical set of allies (the Tyrells) into enemies has taken care of that. So stupid.

[bloodymime]

He is not assertive enough in the books, in fact he breaks down and cries in Tywin's funeral, shows little will for independence until Margaery's encouragement and he of course signs all documents. His moves against Cersei's complete and total power are too little. As I said he has shown some hopeful signs on the front of independence, not allowing others to walk over him, strength of character and so on but still not enough but their various mitigating factors and he can change. How he handles Cersei threat is also an issue, someone else in his position who was neither Joffrey but also had stronger character might not have backed so easily or shown to Cersei that constantly threatening him might not be such a good idea. If his demeanor from the beginning was more assertive, even Cersei would be less likely to threaten him. But age is a huge mitigating factor and he has shown hopeful signs as I noted, else I wouldn't be of the opinion that he can grow to be a good king.

Also Joffrey is more assertive than Tommen, that is a fact. I have no idea why you thought to compare Joffrey and Tommen here as if you suppose anyone would prefer Joffrey. Tommen might have lacked confidence, but he was not a goddamn idiot, sociopath and so on, of course Cersei also had little ability to challenge Joffrey's authority because he was less likely to back down from what he wanted and wanted his wants to be carried out without tolerating people disobeying. This can be foolish, but everything is a subject of balance, some assertiveness is a good thing for a ruler. Joffrey was obviously out of balance on that regard, Tommen has the potential to not be out of balance.

Remember, just because Cersei compares Tommen unfavorably to Joffrey and she is wrong, it doesn't mean that Tommen does not have certain flaws of personality, which perhaps through time and age, encouragement, and experiences can change and he can become sufficiently self confident for example.

I don't consider an eight year old boy not politically outmaneuvering HIS MOTHER as a sign of weakness in his character. I may be mistaken but I don't see the little eight year old adults in the books like Arya and Bran as the norm in Westeros but outliers there to serve the plot.

I brought up Joffrey because Cersei does constantly compare Tommen to him and finds him lacking, something that people do seem to pick up and consider Tommen a weak little boy. I ask this, how is Joffrey assertive? Only when he gets his way and nobody can challenge him, otherwise he's revealed for the puling little coward he is. It costs him nothing to disobey his mother because he most likely enjoys Pate being punished for what Joffrey did and would only be too happy to whip the boy himself until he was bloody.

Outside of Cersei's pov the first time we see Tommen he is in the yard fighting with Bran and when he gets knocked down he takes it like a man without the crying or whining Joffrey shows when he refuses to fight Robb anymore since Robb isn't one of his lackeys to go easy on him and let Joffrey be the big assertive boy he gets to pretend to be. When Tommen gets knocked down jousting he gets right back up on his horse to try again. The boy's character is just fine.

[Jolene Brown]

2) he doesn't give a shit about Tommen. He doubts himself if his lack of emotion towards the kids is normal, but in the end he finds he thinks of them as squirts in Cersei's belly (or something the like)

I think your other critiques relate more to pre-hand Jaime and this one relates more to his attitude toward Joffrey. In AFFC, his relationship with Tommen is developing slowly, but I think surely, and I think if Tommen were to die in one of the next books, his response would be very different to his reaction to Joffrey's death.

[7V3N]

He certainly is a Lannister. Tytos Lannister was the same way, and look at what happened to House Lannister with him! I love Tommen and he's a sweet kid, but he is in no way fit to be King. If he squired for Loras and was mentored by Tyrion, he'd do well. But not how he currently is.

[Lummel]

Don't you? I mean, he's not mean, he's not vicious, he's not malcontent, he's not greedy. He is a lovely boy.

Let's look at all of his brilliant moments:

...

- He wants to outlaw beets

Of course, at the moment he is only eight years old.

But given the chance I reckon he would grow up into a great king.

What do you think? Will we see him perched upon the Iron Throne with Ser Pounce prowling at his feet?

King Tommen Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals, Outlawer of Beets and Protector of the Realm.

Edit - Howling4Reed has reminded me of the prophecy.

So as an added thought to this thread, if he does, how will he die?

To all true lovers of beetroot soup he would be a tyrant, naturally therefore a beet shall be his nemisis. I'm not sure how or when, but without a doubt a beet shall bring him down. :commie:

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I don't consider an eight year old boy not politically outmaneuvering HIS MOTHER as a sign of weakness in his character. I may be mistaken but I don't see the little eight year old adults in the books like Arya and Bran as the norm in Westeros but outliers there to serve the plot. I brought up Joffrey because Cersei does constantly compare Tommen to him and finds him lacking, something that people do seem to pick up and consider Tommen a weak little boy. I ask this, how is Joffrey assertive? Only when he gets his way and nobody can challenge him, otherwise he's revealed for the puling little coward he is. It costs him nothing to disobey his mother because he most likely enjoys Pate being punished for what Joffrey did and would only be too happy to whip the boy himself until he was bloody. Outside of Cersei's pov the first time we see Tommen he is in the yard fighting with Bran and when he gets knocked down he takes it like a man without the crying or whining Joffrey shows when he refuses to fight Robb anymore since Robb isn't one of his lackeys to go easy on him and let Joffrey be the big assertive boy he gets to pretend to be. When Tommen gets knocked down jousting he gets right back up on his horse to try again. The boy's character is just fine.

The issue is not whether he politically outmaneuvered his mother but his general demeanor, including his demeanor towards his mother but also his behavior in regards to other people who want to rule in Kings Landing and want Tommen to simply sign papers as a puppet king. Someone can be outmaneuvered but show different behavior than Tommen did as far as interest in being a king, ruling, imposing his will goes.

You are right that Joffrey is a coward but he is combination between assertive at times (but idiot assertive) and coward at others. Underneath the self confidence and assertiveness to get what he wants, he often shows he is a coward. He has ordered Bran killed, made threats to Tyrion and in my view he is the one who send the KG to kill Tyrion, so if threatened, despite his innate cowardice, and also because of his sociopathy, and cruelness and idiocy, I think it is possible for him to bite back until he can regain his authority, he so desires. He is the stereotypical bully and as such he does try to get what he want and seeing that he becomes the King that means that he often succeeds at getting what he wants. Also, trying to get others to do what you want, is not only a matter of threats but also a matter of having an assertive personality. Obviously it does not always work, in fact it can have negative results if you don't listen to others at all or you want to micromanage everything when you are unfit to do so because you are arrogant about your abilities, but to some decree it helps when you are a leader and people are supposed to follow you to be both self confident and assertive. Tywin for example.

As for Tommen, we have to go with what he has shown to present any view about what kind of King he would be as is the premise of this thread that he would make a great king based on some signs, which admittedly can only be presumptuous due to his age, but still signs can be found. You bring the example of him getting knocked out, then there is the example of his reaction in the funeral and his general behavior in AFFC until he is encouraged to change where there is some change. Also, not lacking courage in your failures does not necessarily means you have the will to impose your will to others. There are many people who are willing to try hard and take courteously and courageously their failure, but they don't like ruling over others and ordering other people around and some might even prefer to be ruled.

I think the issue is less of him being a coward and more of being unwilling to assert his authority and lacking confidence or interest in ruling (that is doing more than signing papers) until he is encouraged to gain some independence where he improves on this somewhat. Of course Cersei's bad influence did play a role in Tommen's behavior. So he does need to improve or change his behavior. Also, being the norm in Westeros or even today's society does not speak in favor of someone not having weaknesses that he needs to improve from, especially a child. And perhaps you have not realized, but what is being contested here is not whether Tommen's personality is so broken on the issue of self confidence, assertiveness that he wouldn't make a good king (and making a good king in ASOIAF is seriously high standard, there quite several leaders who failed in one way or the other) but that there is an issue that he needs to improve upon. Which is what I would expect about anyone other than the most extraordinary of personalities when it comes to achieving the goal of becoming a good king. The argument that he is not an 8 years old adult as you called Bran and Arya does not speak against the view that he needs guidance, it just reinforces it.

Most people have weaknesses (and those people are usually better than Joffrey like Tommen is, so a comparison to prove lack of weaknesses is pointless. You need to demystify the concept of weaknesses or flaws as it is something to be expected, and can be an issue as far as kingship goes even if you are someone who is not lacking in comparison to Joffrey. Thankfully flaws can sometimes not be such a big weakness that is unable to be changed) they can also be found at an early age (more so there perhaps) that needs to be improved (but you can pick new ones later on too) and not everyone is fit to be good or even great king without sufficient guidance. Of course managing to surpass your weakness is important and thankfully learning does not only come from educators and parents but also from experiences and friends and in Tommen's case even someone like Margaery. Also from what we have seen from the also young Myrcella in the books she seems both to be intelligent and more self confident. Anyway, if I thought his weakness was so big or he didn't have positive signs on that issue, or he couldn't improve, and he couldn't be a good king, that would be another thing. Seriously, unless your next reply is really surprising, I believe I had said what needed to be said in reply of your views on how can something think that Tommmen needs to improve on issues of assertiveness and letting others walk all over him without me needing to expand on this any more.

[Queen of Spades]

The Hound said of Tommen "The boy has courage". This kid does have potential !

Also he loves kitten. Totally good king material :P

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Are you guys serious?...Tyrion?He has some serious issues, both with sexuality and with power, and even if he cared enough to try and make a good king and not a good pawn to be king through by himself, I doubt he has the emotional capabilities for the task...

Tyrion ruling the Seven Kingdoms through eight-year-old King Tommen, sans Cersei? Not that it is like to happen, but am I the only one who thinks that this is exactly what Westeros needs?

[Pellaeon]

Tyrion ruling the Seven Kingdoms through eight-year-old King Tommen, sans Cersei? Not that it is like to happen, but am I the only one who thinks that this is exactly what Westeros needs?

I agree with you westeros need this

[bloodymime]

Tyrion ruling the Seven Kingdoms through eight-year-old King Tommen, sans Cersei? Not that it is like to happen, but am I the only one who thinks that this is exactly what Westeros needs?

I think he'd be more willing to actually teach Tommen how to rule as well unlike Cersei who shoves Tommen aside while thinking to herself it's her turn to go down the slide.

[The Taupe Grace]

I'm going to go all out on a limb and express my hopeful (wishful thinking) theory that Tommen and Myrcella need not necessarily die - Maggy the Frog's prophecy mentions three golden crowns and three golden shrouds that her children will wear. Presumably, all three will be crowned (already happened) and will be covered with a mourning shroud of Lannister Gold (1 down...).

Taking it literally, I see a distinct possibility that Cersei could be presented with the shrouded forms of her children and believing that they are dead, when they are actually whisked off to Essos by a kind friend of the family to raise in Exile... (possibly.) I could definitely imagine fake reports of Myrcella being killed that spurs her into attacking Dorne. It's unlikely that both Myrcella and Tommen will survive (esp. Tommen, who is adorable), but we need not take prophecies at face value!

[Jolene Brown]

I just read Cercei's walk of shame chapter and she mentions her hair as her crown when it's being shaved. I've seen that idea mentioned before that the kids' crowns might be their hair, but it's nice to see potential textual support for the flexibility of the prophecy.

[TheDemonBear]

He might be good, to bad Dany is likely to burn him alive in the end though.

[Ice Turtle]

He would make a good king but not in the times he was born to. Winter is comming a rather horrible one.

[bbqq]

If we consider the wider family picture.. he's a middle child with a psychotic, overbearing mother (who hates his father), a psychotic brother (who possibly abused him, and died traumatically in front of him), and an alcoholic father (who hates his mother, and who also died). The fact he seems psychologically unaffected by this shows to me remarkable resilience of character, for an 8 year old.

I love Tommen, think he's brilliant, everything he does is adorable (stamping the seals, ser pounce, outlawing beets) - And IMO this is deliberately being set up by GRRM to make his inevitable death seem more shocking. Tommen will be the new Aegon and Rhaenys, laid before the throne of the new king.