Daenerys and the Usurper's Other Dogs

[redviper9]

While doing a re-read of Daenerys's chapters, I was reminded of her animosity towards the Baratheons and their "dogs," namely the Starks and the Lannisters. Her feelings are understandable: Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne from the Targaryens, Tywin Lannister ordered the death of Rhaegar's children, and Ned Stark was Robert's closest friend and ally.

But Dany never seems to give a second thought to the Arryns and the Tullys, the other two great houses that rebelled against Aerys II. This strikes me as odd, because it's not like their role in the rebellion was minor; it was Jon Arryn that started the rebellion proper by calling his banners, and he became Hand of the King to Robert after it was done. Hoster's support was crucial to the war effort, so crucial that Ned and Jon Arryn agreed to marry Catelyn and Lysa in order to guarantee that the Arryns, Baratheons, and Starks would not go it alone.

So, any thoughts as to why Dany has seemingly forgotten the Arryns and the Tullys? And, assuming she gets back to Westeros, any thoughts as to what her plans regarding the surviving Arryns and Tullys might be?

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, Tywin had been Aerys' trusted friend and hand but was responsible for the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys, Robert took the crown and killed Rhaegar and Ned was the heir of the house Dany's family cut a swathe through. I guess Jon and Hoster just don't resonate as much. I think they are also less intimidating, by reputation. Ned's an icy northerner, Tywin is Tywin, Robert is an awesome warrior but Jon and Hoster aren't as flashy in comparison.

Jon may have ceded command to Robert soon after Gulltown too, so he didn't serve as a leader for the rebels for very long and Hoster joined later.

[Arkantos]

Dany is an idiot who doesn't ask questions, shame really.

[rodrik Cassel]

Thats a very good question also it realy doesnot matter anymore because do be frank there are hardly any tullys and arryns left in power...

[Ty3009]

I think that it's natural she has more of a score to settle with the houses that are directly responsible for the deaths of her family. House Baratheon killed her brother and House Lannister killed her father, her niece, and her nephew.

[The Lord's Kiss]

She also doesn't listen to the answers, shown when Ser Grandfather tried to explain that the Ned was the only one who would not condone her assassination. "SILENCE TRUSTED ADVISOR. USURPER'S. DOG."

[Headless Jeyne]

It seems possible to me she is not even aware of them or their role. Basically most of what she "knows" about Westeros she was spoon fed by Viserys, who, let's face it, is not the most reliable source.

Saying "Dany is an idiot who doesn't ask questions" is ridiculous. She certainly has done plenty to challenge the status quo in Essos (the institution of slavery, the idea women can't be Khal, etc) and we see her in Mereen reflecting on her choices, what her role is as queen, etc.

But you are right that she has not really questioned what Viserys has told her, and her concept of Westeros and her family. Given that her brother is an obvious wack job, yes, you would think she would have at some point. But I think the reason she hasn't is because she wants to believe the truth as Viserys has sold it to her. No one wants to come from a family of dickheads. Dany wants to cling to the idea that her family and house is great because in part because it means she by extension is great. But it is also that she has spent so many years idolizing the past and taking great solace in her fantasy of her family because she had nothing other then her crazy brother, and it gave her comfort and a sense of self and place and belonging.

Yes, she needs to grow up in this regard. But I hope that may be coming soon...

[Light a wight tonight]

Seems wrong to me that Dany has a grudge against the Starks since her house was responsible for the unjust killing of Starks, which touched off the rebellion. I'd like to see how Rickon and Arya would feel about Dany as a surviving member of the House that burned their grandfather alive.

[jarl the climber]

Robert killed her brother and took the throne. Thats pretty strong grpounds for disliking him. She also beleives that he had hired knives chasing her whole life. She also mentions the Kingslayer by name. I suppose she also knows that Tywin was responsible for killing Elia and her kids. I'm not sure why she ranks the Starks in the same rank as the magor usurpers like them. Probaly because Robert and Ned were joined at the hip? It does seem like the Starks should be in the ranks of the mini usurpers like the Tullys and the Arryns. I do not think that she has even mentioned the Tullys or the Arryns.

[redviper9]

It seems possible to me she is not even aware of them or their role. Basically most of what she "knows" about Westeros she was spoon fed by Viserys, who, let's face it, is not the most reliable source.

Saying "Dany is an idiot who doesn't ask questions" is ridiculous. She certainly has done plenty to challenge the status quo in Essos (the institution of slavery, the idea women can't be Khal, etc) and we see her in Mereen reflecting on her choices, what her role is as queen, etc.

But you are right that she has not really questioned what Viserys has told her, and her concept of Westeros and her family. Given that her brother is an obvious wack job, yes, you would think she would have at some point. But I think the reason she hasn't is because she wants to believe the truth as Viserys has sold it to her. No one wants to come from a family of dickheads. Dany wants to cling to the idea that her family and house is great because in part because it means she by extension is great. But it is also that she has spent so many years idolizing the past and taking great solace in her fantasy of her family because she had nothing other then her crazy brother, and it gave her comfort and a sense of self and place and belonging.

Yes, she needs to grow up in this regard. But I hope that may be coming soon...

Very good point about her "education" at the hands of Viserys. It still does seem a bit odd to me that he wouldn't include the Arryns and the Tullys among the "Usurper's dogs," especially in light of the fact that Viserys and Dany seem to paint everyone and anyone that was involved in the rebellion with the same brush. I understand that Robert's and Tywin's actions might set them up for a special brand of hatred, but if the Starks are as bad as the Lannisters in the eyes of Viserys and Dany, then it stands to reason that the Arryns and the Tullys would be as well; unless of course Viserys was ignorant of their role, but he seems to know so many other details of the rebellion -- details that he does twist to make the Targaryens look good -- that I find that hard to believe (though anything is possible under the Westerosi sun).

Regarding Dany's refusal to ask questions, I think that trait is most apparent when it comes to Westeros and the rebellion. She absolutely refuses to listen to anything that might cast her family in a negative light or demonstrate that the rebels weren't all cut from the same cloth. The two clearest examples to me are her reaction to Ned's imprisonment -- something that even Jorah, no fan of the Starks, has a hard time believing -- and how she cuts off Barristan the few times he's broached the subject. It's that particular stubbornness that makes me think she might not be the best queen for Westeros; viewing anyone that didn't toe the line 100 percent as disloyal was a trait of Aerys and Joffrey. Granted, she's shown some flexibility in Meereen, but she doesn't seem to want to bend when it comes to her idea of Westeros and its families. Perhaps things will change once she arrives there, or maybe she'll finally listen to Barristan if they have another opportunity to discuss the matter.

[Erudain]

It seems possible to me she is not even aware of them or their role. Basically most of what she "knows" about Westeros she was spoon fed by Viserys, who, let's face it, is not the most reliable source.

Saying "Dany is an idiot who doesn't ask questions" is ridiculous. She certainly has done plenty to challenge the status quo in Essos (the institution of slavery, the idea women can't be Khal, etc) and we see her in Mereen reflecting on her choices, what her role is as queen, etc.

But you are right that she has not really questioned what Viserys has told her, and her concept of Westeros and her family. Given that her brother is an obvious wack job, yes, you would think she would have at some point. But I think the reason she hasn't is because she wants to believe the truth as Viserys has sold it to her. No one wants to come from a family of dickheads. Dany wants to cling to the idea that her family and house is great because in part because it means she by extension is great. But it is also that she has spent so many years idolizing the past and taking great solace in her fantasy of her family because she had nothing other then her crazy brother, and it gave her comfort and a sense of self and place and belonging.

Yes, she needs to grow up in this regard. But I hope that may be coming soon...

Yeah but if you most trusted knigth tells you:

"Look my lady...when Ned got to KL your nephews were already dead so he didnt do it, also a couple months ago all KL court wanted you dead and he was the only one to oppose it....ohh and by the way, the official story is that your big bro kiddnaped and raped a Stark girl and of course your dad hosted this BBQ a while ago and the Starks weren't guest...they were the main dish"

She should shut the hell up and learn from what a person she trusts is telling her....if she doesn't then well....it's dumb

[Pod The Impaler]

Frankly, I think it is just a story gap. If it ever came up in conversation, she probably would consider them more of the Usurper's Dogs.

As to the rest, remember she did grow up only hearing her brother Viserys' rather biased viewpoint of the world:

- Rhaegar was a saint, a man in love not an abductor & rapist

- Aerys II was a good king and they only called him mad to defame him

- Mother Rhaella loved father, and he respected her

- The Starks couldn't handle the awesomeness of Rhaegar & Lyanna together, and turned traitor

- Robert Baratheon couldn't stand being shoved aside by a better man and turned traitor

- The Arryns turned traitor because they couldn't handle daddy's lawful judgement

- The Tullys turned traitor for political advantage

- Elia and Dorne totally didn't mind Rhaegar exercising his right to enjoy younger & hotter female flesh as any male dragon should

- Tywin Lannister was jealous of father being more awesome than him and betrayed him

- Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys were killed because the Usurper's Dogs are all murdering scum

- Jaime Lannister was just a backstabbing jerk-ass doing what his father secretly wanted

- By the way, Dany, you killed mother by being born, you unworthy stupid girl. I hate you. Later I'll have you anyway, and be king.

This is why Dany still has "issues" about Westerosi history.

[Fire Eater]

Frankly, I think it is just a story gap. If it ever came up in conversation, she probably would consider them more of the Usurper's Dogs.

As to the rest, remember she did grow up only hearing her brother Viserys' rather biased viewpoint of the world:

- Rhaegar was a saint, a man in love not an abductor & rapist

- Aerys II was a good king and they only called him mad to defame him

- Mother Rhaella loved father, and he respected her

- The Starks couldn't handle the awesomeness of Rhaegar & Lyanna together, and turned traitor

- Robert Baratheon couldn't stand being shoved aside by a better man and turned traitor

- The Arryns turned traitor because they couldn't handle daddy's lawful judgement

- The Tullys turned traitor for political advantage

- Elia and Dorne totally didn't mind Rhaegar exercising his right to enjoy younger & hotter female flesh as any male dragon should

- Tywin Lannister was jealous of father being more awesome than him and betrayed him

- Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys were killed because the Usurper's Dogs are all murdering scum

- Jaime Lannister was just a backstabbing jerk-ass doing what his father secretly wanted

- By the way, Dany, you killed mother by being born, you unworthy stupid girl. I hate you. Later I'll have you anyway, and be king.

This is why Dany still has "issues" about Westerosi history.

She forgets that most of what she knows about the war came from her half-mad brother who was eight years-old at the time.

Barristan tells her Ned resigned his position as Hand that his friend Robert gave him over Robert's decison to assassinate her when she is supposedly his enemy. She just ignores, and brings up Rhaenys and Aegon's deaths to which Barristan tells her that wasn't Ned's work but Lannister work. She replies he is just as guilty, which is the same logic as saying if a few men from a village commit murder then the entire village is responsible for the murders, and should be put to death.

Her passion and anger often cloud her judgement.

[Dr. Pepper]

It seems possible to me she is not even aware of them or their role. Basically most of what she "knows" about Westeros she was spoon fed by Viserys, who, let's face it, is not the most reliable source.

Exactly this. The bulk of what she knows about Westeros and her family comes from Viserys, who barely knew anything at all. The next Westerosi she becomes close with, Jorah, then spoon feeds her Stark hatred and doesn't tell her anything useful about the Rebellion. Barristan tries, but he's a pretty passive, cravenly type person and never tried an aggressive approach to educating Dany. He told her only what she wanted to hear, when she wanted to hear it.

[Winter's Ghost]

Exactly this. The bulk of what she knows about Westeros and her family comes from Viserys, who barely knew anything at all. The next Westerosi she becomes close with, Jorah, then spoon feeds her Stark hatred and doesn't tell her anything useful about the Rebellion. Barristan tries, but he's a pretty passive, cravenly type person and never tried an aggressive approach to educating Dany. He told her only what she wanted to hear, when she wanted to hear it.

He shouldn't have to be aggressive, she should want to know. Not only about the war and her family, but of Westeros in general. A good leader would want to know as much as possible about the land they want to rule.

[nara]

In the case of House Arryn, what's left is a little boy, so there's no one left against whom to hold a grudge.

[Dr. Pepper]

He shouldn't have to be aggressive, she should want to know. Not only about the war and her family, but of Westeros in general. A good leader would want to know as much as possible about the land they want to rule.

Yes, a good leader should want as much information as possible, but Dany isn't a good leader (I know this is a hotly debated topic and I'm not trying to make this thread into that debate. This is my opinion and it's unchanging at this point). There are quite a few leaders in the series who are not good leaders. That doesn't absolve their counselors from attempting to educate them to the best of their abilities. Barry came to Dany because he thought she would be a good leader. Yes, Dany should want to know, but Barry also has a responsibility to help encourage her to want to know the truth so she can make good decisions.

[Winter's Ghost]

Yes, a good leader should want as much information as possible, but Dany isn't a good leader (I know this is a hotly debated topic and I'm not trying to make this thread into that debate. This is my opinion and it's unchanging at this point). There are quite a few leaders in the series who are not good leaders. That doesn't absolve their counselors from attempting to educate them to the best of their abilities. Barry came to Dany because he thought she would be a good leader. Yes, Dany should want to know, but Barry also has a responsibility to help encourage her to want to know the truth so she can make good decisions.

Well, I agree on the fact that she's not a good leader, and he should push more, but it is primarily her own fault for not asking or caring.

[danm_999]

In the case of House Arryn, what's left is a little boy, so there's no one left against whom to hold a grudge.

She'll be fighting Jon Arryn's legacy though, in both the Vale and Westeros in general. The Vale will be particularly strong when/if she lands, as it's been kept out of the fight.

[Dr. Pepper]

Well, I agree on the fact that she's not a good leader, and he should push more, but it is primarily her own fault for not asking or caring.

True, Dany has blame in not asking more questions. But how does one know to question when one has never heard anything to refute what one already knows? Jorah at least tells her that the smallfolk aren't hiding away in their hovels wishing for the return of dragons, but he doesn't do anything to refute her knowledge of the Rebellion which is pretty much the same as saying that what she knows is true. Barristan had plenty of opportunity but doesn't speak up until the 9th hour, and even then only tells her a tiny fraction before stopping and moving onto other 'safe' topics at her request.