Jojen's future

[Silent_Hero]

Jojen has said that he has seen his death and that he will die in the Neck.

[chrisdaw]

No he didn't.

[The Chequered Raven]

Jojen has said that he has seen his death and that he will die in the Neck.

Are you sure?

As far as I remember, he has only said he knows his death, but refused to tell any details about it. But maybe i'm wrong, I have only read the books once and just startet my first reread yesterday.

Can anybody quote the situation where he has said so?

[Miss]

Still waiting for some evidence on that one, a year and a half on.

They already ate the black brothers that coldhands killed. Coldhands said he caught a pig. But pig and man are not much different meat. I think that foreshadows - letting you know cannibalism is happening and giving you an idea. Then the bones through the children's tunnels is pretty dark. Plus Jojen's depression may well be because he knows he is destined for the cooking pot quite soon.

[Cold Pie]

The thing about all these theories about Bran is that they're based upon that the CoTF (those alive with 3EC atleast) eat humans and are quite evil. Through all the books we are led to believe that they are the good guys, the only evidence that point otherwise is the things that Bran sees. Have the CoTF changed, or have they always been like that, and the myths are all false? Or perhaps all that Bran sees are red herrings (probably not though).

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

They already ate the black brothers that coldhands killed. Coldhands said he caught a pig. But pig and man are not much different meat. I think that foreshadows - letting you know cannibalism is happening and giving you an idea. Then the bones through the children's tunnels is pretty dark. Plus Jojen's depression may well be because he knows he is destined for the cooking pot quite soon.

So nothing even remotely concrete then.

[The Key Is Patchface]

What do you think Jojen's future holds? Does he have second thoughts about bringing Bran to Bloodraven? Is he fearing his family's demise in Greywater watch? Is he fearing the Long Night?

I have a feeling we'll find out that Bloodraven either is The Lord of Darkness or is a minion of The Lord of Darkness...grooming Bran to be able to battle R'hllor somehow...but regardless nothing good is going to come out of Bran's time with this guy

[The Cannibal Prince]

Jojen realized that he was tricked by the "great other" into bringing death and destruction to bran. He now knows that the reborn Azor Ahai will have to kill bran to bring peace once again to the world.

[drawdrew]

I don't think GRRM is inclined to just make the Others dread lord like figures. I don't think he likes anything in black and white. I think R'llor and the Great Other are two very powerful forces who lack balance, and the only real solution to these things is to balance them.

[The Cannibal Prince]

GRRM is on another level. Everything we think he will surpass with his brilliance!!!

[Miss]

So nothing even remotely concrete then.

Aside from your brain, no. Sorry. But that's how interpretation works. You should try it.

[Miss]

The thing about all these theories about Bran is that they're based upon that the CoTF (those alive with 3EC atleast) eat humans and are quite evil. Through all the books we are led to believe that they are the good guys, the only evidence that point otherwise is the things that Bran sees. Have the CoTF changed, or have they always been like that, and the myths are all false? Or perhaps all that Bran sees are red herrings (probably not though).

If you read through what the forum "Heretics" are saying in their heresy threads, they make a pretty good case that there is a major confusion/lost in history regarding the Black Brothers, the Starks, and the Children.

Whatever is going to happen, it's clear that Bran and Mel are at war (or will be soon enough - Mel is at war with Bloodraven, at least). This makes for interesting oppositions - who is the good guys? Mel or Bran? At the moment, it seems they share a common enemy - the white walkers. But read deeper and you remember the Starks are the Kings of Winter, and Coldhands says he is "Bran's monster" as if Bran/Starks are actually the possessers of him.

I think what has happened is the Children and the Starks are tied closely to the white walkers and may even be able to ally/control them if some sorts of conditions (which have been forgotten) are met. Jon will be ressurected not by Mel, but by the white walkers or Bran as some sort of super neo wight, the King of Winter, and will side against Mel and the black brothers to lead the wildlings and at least some part of the white walkers down on the realm to basically free and protect the north.

Something like this. Whatever the case, at least some of what I am guessing is plainly being built up for.

[andrew_]

Aside from your brain, no. Sorry. But that's how interpretation works. You should try it.

Whoa watch the sass captain sassy-pants, you only have 20 posts so i'll give you a heads up. On these forums we are polite and civilized, not insulting and rude. So play nice :)

and Merry Christmas xx

[Miss]

Whoa watch the sass captain sassy-pants, you only have 20 posts so i'll give you a heads up. On these forums we are polite and civilized, not insulting and rude. So play nice :)

and Merry Christmas xx

If witicism is not tolerated, then this place will be very dull.

[andrew_]

If witicism is not tolerated, then this place will be very dull.

*witticism

[chrisdaw]

The thing about all these theories about Bran is that they're based upon that the CoTF (those alive with 3EC atleast) eat humans and are quite evil.

Jojen paste doesn't assume the COT or BR are evil.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Aside from your brain, no. Sorry. But that's how interpretation works. You should try it.

Interpretation requires something of substance to interpret. It's why nobody takes conspiracy theorists' "interpretations" seriously.

All you're pointing out are observations. They do not correlate with any notion that Bran ate/drank Jojen.

[ross1983]

Hasn't brynden rivers always served the realm faithfully before he became one with the weirwood? Why would he help the Others destroy the realm he spent most of his life protecting? And we know bran has a genuinely kind heart and we know he is smart enough not to be tricked into serving a force that may bring down westeros. Why would these two help the others?

I think Mel is wrong in assuming BR and bran are tools of the great other like we've seen her misinterpret other visions. I feel BR, bran and Mel are on the same side but Mel simply misinterpreted their purpose.

I think jojen is down simply because he has seen his own fate. Not because he led bran to someone who will use him to support the Others. He even mentioned in the last bran chapter in adwd that bran wasn't the one who need worry.

When bran was falling with the three eyed crow and looked into the heart of winter, the crow said now u see why u must fly, because winter is coming. Or something along those lines. But I assumed what he saw to the north, in the heart of winter was some kind of force that could bring an end to westeros. The raven was telling him he must fly(live) to counter this force.

So, I feel jojen is only depressed because he has seen his own end and can no longer offer a whole lot of help in taking on the Others. As old as he acts and seems, he is still just a child, scared of leaving his world and finding out what the great mystery of death brings us.

[Miss]

Interpretation requires something of substance to interpret. It's why nobody takes conspiracy theorists' "interpretations" seriously.

All you're pointing out are observations. They do not correlate with any notion that Bran ate/drank Jojen.

Yes, but you need to look at what Martin might be trying to tell us. You say you want "concrete" evidence, but where is the fun in that? If it was "true" by yourt standards, then Bran would have said something like, "This paste taste a little like Jojen steaks." I just don't think Martin is going to write that.

Look at what he did write, however. Jojen believes he is going to die very soon. Coldhands cannibalized the Black Brothers following them and fed them to everyone - this is true not just because it's unlikely Coldhands could have caught a pig, but there is no description of a "pig on a spit" we are just simply told it is a pig, and man flesh is like pork. And then the awkward momnent where "Only Bran and Jojen were aware of what was going on." Aware of what? Not just that the Black Brother's died, but I think it's clear they're eating them. And then you get to the cave, and there are bones everywhere and it is clear that the Children appreciate dark rituals due to this - such rituals will commonly involve blood or human sacrifice, so it makes sense. And then when Bran gets the paste, he thinks it looks like blood in it. And the paste is clearly magical (blood magic possible) because of the way he does not like it at first but then loves it by the end. There is a spell in it and we know blood magic works well, so why not? And then when he goes to see Jojen and Meera, they are not there. No more Jojen.

It seems pretty clear to me. It is not a wild theory. It has serious backing.

[Miss]

Hasn't brynden rivers always served the realm faithfully before he became one with the weirwood? Why would he help the Others destroy the realm he spent most of his life protecting? And we know bran has a genuinely kind heart and we know he is smart enough not to be tricked into serving a force that may bring down westeros. Why would these two help the others?

Well this is the thing, the Others either might not be evil, or they might be at least misunderstood. Are the Others trying to destroy the realm? Do you have proof? That is an assumption. Saying the Others want to destroy the realm is no different than saying Dany wants to destroy the realm. They might both be invaders, yes, but who's to say that the Others do not have a right to do so? Dany wants to reclaim the realm. If there is a connection between the Others and the Children and the Starks, it is entirely possible that the Others are a tool used by the Children to reclaim their lost Kingdom, along with the firstmen (Starks) who also worship the old gods and respect the same things the Children do.

You have jumped to a conclusion that every block headed Black Brother and Wildling makes. Open you eyes and mind and try to think more objectively.

I think Mel is wrong in assuming BR and bran are tools of the great other like we've seen her misinterpret other visions. I feel BR, bran and Mel are on the same side but Mel simply misinterpreted their purpose.

I appreciate that you had this idea, but I think you missed something.

Mel describes an arch nemesis as something like sitting in shadow, one eyed - she is describing Bloodraven, her ultimate foe.

When you say "Same side" you are meaning sides of good and evil, I think. Which is where you er. Niether are good and evil, I think. They are simply two forces fighting each other for domination. In which case, Mel has not misinterpreted her foe. She has merely identified him for us. That Mel points the finger at Bloodraven when she is actively fighting the Others paints a clear connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others (assuming Mel is right, which I think she is in this at least).

I think jojen is down simply because he has seen his own fate. Not because he led bran to someone who will use him to support the Others. He even mentioned in the last bran chapter in adwd that bran wasn't the one who need worry.

But if I'm right, then Jojen also worships the old gods and thus is allied with the Others. He would not be sad about it. I think he is sad because he will die, but he does his duty anyway for the greater good (aiding the Others and the old gods).