Heresy 40

[Little Wing]

Okay, Tyryan, I can live with that... :)

[nanother]

Actually, he does say he talked to Jon and that he had opened his third eye. "Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon" (aCoK, p. 959).

The only part that doesn't seem to fit is the "warm earth" part because the crypts are always described as being cold, so I'm not really sure what to make of it .

Thanks for that quote, saved me the effort of looking it up! One possible explanation for the warm earth is that it's coming from Summer. In his dream Ghost/Jon smells the boy and the wolf (and the tree - I wonder what that means). So it's possible that not all the 'background smells' are coming from Bran. I think it's possible that future Bran is there somehow in a 'tree in the acorn' way as redriver suggests, but for now I don't see the need to assume even that. The two (well, four) of them communicating there and then seems a satisfying enough explanation to me.

But the 3EC is aware that it is a appearing as a crow hence lines like "hey got any corn" which are clearly having a jape about it being a crow.

Ooops, yeah, that's a good point! I used to think he's not particularly aware of the form he takes, but you're right, he clearly is!

While warging Summer during Dance, Bran notes that he cannot sense his brothers/sister anymore.

I don't remember that, could you point me to the right passage?

[Black Crow]

IIrc,BR says this is not essential as your powers grow.

Not quite, although its a common mistake. What Bloodraven actually told him was that at first he would see through the eyes of the weirwoods, but later as his power grew he wouldn't need them.

[redriver]

Not quite, although its a common mistake. What Bloodraven actually told him was that at first he would see through the eyes of the weirwoods, but later as his power grew he wouldn't need them.

"...but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."-Bloodraven to Bran,ADWD.

This doesn't suggest to me that the weirnet is not needed,it just suggests a powerful greenseer can see well beyond the immediate vicinity of the trees.

Unless you're referring to a different quote?

[Black Crow]

"...but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."-Bloodraven to Bran,ADWD.

This doesn't suggest to me that the weirnet is not needed,it just suggests a powerful greenseer can see well beyond the immediate vicinity of the trees.

Unless you're referring to a different quote?

Nope, same quote but as he begins by saying he'll start off seeing through the weirwood eyes I'm taking the continuation you've just quoted as meaning he'll be able to see things without looking through those eyes.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I guess it means he'll be able to float around eventually, won't need trees or familiars to see through them. Something like astral projection, I guess...

[wolfmaid7]

Jon was asleep and dreaming whilst warging ghost and it's related through Jon's POV.I think Bran was asleep as well.

It seems to me that the dreamers were physically located as related in the story,both in time and place,but the dreams themselves are not subject to these restraints.Jon is perceiving Bran as he is and in essence,what he will become.

The closest parallel is the "oak is the acorn,acorn is the oak" analogy BR uses to describe the weirwoods/weirnet.

I doubt Bran chose to project himself as a tree,but that's how Jon perceived him.Therefore Jon connected to a future Bran in the cave,but that is the same Bran that's in the crypts.

Yeah that's kinda what i got,something about him seemed much more mature to me indicating that while it was him it was at a different time.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I guess it means he'll be able to float around eventually, won't need trees or familiars to see through them. Something like astral projection, I guess...

And (1) as he and the Crow saw the world in that first dream, and (2) how Varamyr very briefly saw everything before being drawn into One-Eye.

[redriver]

Nope, same quote but as he begins by saying he'll start off seeing through the weirwood eyes I'm taking the continuation you've just quoted as meaning he'll be able to see things without looking through those eyes.

I take it that you learn to see through those eyes,but just within the natural range of those eyes,as all Brans weirwood vision have,so far.But you learn to see beyond the range of those eyes.

As in if your heart tree is looking at a mountain,in time you will be able to see the far side of the mountain,and beyond.

Yeah, I guess it means he'll be able to float around eventually, won't need trees or familiars to see through them. Something like astral projection, I guess...

I would liken it to a wifi connection,rather than USB,but the weirwoods are the network!

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Woww.... This was all great ! :-)

And , yes Bran did seem mature in Jon's dream , yet isnt Bran have always been silent and thoughtful ? And even little wise since his first POV chapter and his talk with Ned ?

And i think Grrm portrays darkness positively in this series. Sort of inverted stereotypes of Light = Good and Dark = Evil....

[Mace Cooterian]

That's the one. There's some food for thought in there but its far from straightforward. Generally speaking we've tended to link this with Bran hiding in the Winterfell crypts, hence the darkness and the smell of death, but reading it over again I'm not so sure.

Why the brown smell of warm earth in a stone crypt characterised by its coldness?

And then the smell of death. Crypts don't smell of death, they smell of dust and musty air, but not dead. What's in there is long dead, but Ghost is recoiling from something malevolent and dangerous.

And then there's Bran liking it in the dark, being able to see without being seen. That's what Bloodraven tells him in the cave, its not something he thought about in the crypts, so he must be in the cave not the crypt.

So if Ghost smells something terrible - Death in the cave...

Later on in that chapter (Jon VII, ACoK) Jon has awaken (likely due to the eagle attacking Ghost up on the precipice) and explained his dream to Qhorin and the other rangers. They break camp and begin to ride, Jon is doubting whether the dream was real or not....."And what about the weirwood with his brother's face, that smelled of death and darkness"?

Um.... Ghost speaks?!?!?!?

And it is only after he does so that Bran is able to connect to Jon through Ghost...

So whether it's Bran from the crypt or future Bran, he does indeed seem to speak to Jon through Ghost. What is also surprising to me after a re-read, is that after Bran touches Ghost on the forehead (with an obvious weirwood branch), Jon/Ghost wakes from the dream and find themselves on the precipice. I'm assuming that Bran was reaching out to warged Ghost to talk to Jon; for later in the chapter, the eagle attacks Ghost, which this time seems to wake Jon from his own dream....."Ghost, Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons. The pain. Ghost to me"?

[Melifeather]

Um.... Ghost speaks?!?!?!?

And it is only after he does so that Bran is able to connect to Jon through Ghost...

Oh my god....I just caught that too. And GRRM describes the sound as long, lonely and mournful, so we cannot assume it was a silent howl. At first read I thought that the "can a shout be silent" to be Ghost...I think it may have been deliberate wording to distract us that Ghost actually howled. Amazing.

Interesting. I just read this chapter in a re-read of the series, and I assumed it was Bran speaking to Jon from the future, from BR's cave, and that the death smell was BR himself, slowly decaying (and possibly a premonition of Bran's future).

In that chapter, we get a lot from Qhorin on Starks - Qhorin wants Jon with him because he's a Stark, and they have a connection with the old gods. Qhorin immediately believes Jon's wolf dream, and even calls it a "wolf dream" like Bran and Jojen. Another thing that struck me was that Ygritte "recoils" when Jon tells her his name is Jon Snow - is she recoiling from the word Snow? Why would she - she lives in the North?

I posted some of this On The Wrong Thread elsewhere, so my huge apologies if this also is a Wrong Thread. It's sometimes hard to keep track of where things go.

I'm sure the regulars on Heresy will howl a collective moan when I repeat my theory about Jon Snow's name. I think King Jon Stark was actually a legitimized bastard, also previously named Snow. Something bad happened during his time...so bad, that the wildlings remember. See this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77369-the-trueborn-story-about-how-the-nights-king-was-overthrown-and-winterfell-stolen-by-a-bastard/#entry3850438

@ ELITEFORCE850, thanks for looking up the quote!

I'm pretty sure Bran's in the crypts.

1) the timing fits

2) Bran remembers connecting to Ghost and talking to Jon in the crypts

3) as for the smells:

the rich brown smell of warm earth = Ned's empty grave

the hard grey smell of stone = th stone structure of the crypt (no such thing in the cave!)

and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. = the dead Starks; remember Ned's visit to the crypts with the dead watching? And the iron swords, and Jon's crypt dreams? There is something malevolent down there.

ETA 4) he was already liking seeing and not be seen when he was climbing the walls of Winterfell...

In his dream, mind you. At least it seems like Ghost was dreaming as well. But yes he speaks. I'm not sure about Bran only being able to connect afterwards - I thought the call was just what got his attention and made him try in the first place

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Bran couldn't see through the weirwoods until he ate the weirwood paste, so he definitely had to be in the caves.

[Melifeather]

New stuff - this time, it's Iceland!

Awesome! Thanks!

BUT...

Bran can't change the past if he has already been present in the past and thus anything he does by going into the past has already happened, making it so that he cannot create an alternate reality.

For my fellow Futurama fans, think "Roswell that Ends Well," the episode where Fry and the crew get sent back in time to Roswell, NM 1948 (where it turns out that they were the aliens that landed).. Fry partakes in some seemingly future altering activity, but it actually doesn't change shit, because he can't change it, because, from the perspective of their "present" (the being the year 3000), whatever Fry partakes in during that journey he had already done

Basically, the past can't be changed because if you go into the past any actions you partake you were, from the perspective of your "natural present", kind of destined to do. You can't change the past, merely go there and fulfill the role that you have already fulfilled.

Far out, man....got any munchies? :drunk:

[nanother]

Well, obviously, he's not seeing through the weirwoods, and it isn't implied in the text either. He appears as one which can be foreshadowing on Martin's part, or can be prophetic on Jon's part, or it might be Bran's 'avatar' as the 3EC is BR's, or something entirely else. The one thing that gives me pause that Ghost can smell the tree. But it's not enough at this point to discard all the evidence that a real-time conversation is going on. As I said, future Bran might be present in some oak-in-the-acorn way, but Bran in the crypts definitely talks to Jon one way or another.

[Melifeather]

In my opinion, the reason why Ghost smelled death is because Bran isn't mortal after he eats the weirwood paste. Meera said he had to drink of the green fountain while still mortal, which suggests that afterwards he would be....dare I say it....dead.

You cannot become one with the godhead if you're still alive.

[JonNonRegis]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Bran couldn't see through the weirwoods until he ate the weirwood paste, so he definitely had to be in the caves.

Well, weirwoods notwithstanding, he could apparently communicate with, or at least receive communication from, other members of his family prior to eating the paste -- and that communication was real time or very close to it.

I cite the instance of the dreams both Bran and Rickon had in GoT, that notified them their father was dead well before the raven came with confirmation.

I didn't get the impression that was a prophetic sort of thing; it seemed to happen in conjunction with Ned's beheading, not well in advance as with a greendream or similar.

Bran's experience with Jon in the next book doesn't seem too dissimilar. Dream experience, real time communication, family member, some symbolism as to expression (we have Bran's face symbolically in a tree, much as in the dream from the first book we have Ned symbolically in the crypts).

[Mace Cooterian]

In my opinion, the reason why Ghost smelled death is because Bran isn't mortal after he eats the weirwood paste. Meera said he had to drink of the green fountain while still mortal, which suggests that afterwards he would be....dare I say it....dead.

You cannot become one with the godhead if you're still alive.

Maybe that is why the CoTF need mankind (Greenseer's) to die so that they maintain their conduit to the Old Gods?

ETA: So the CoTF coerce potential Greenseer's into the cave, get them to eat weirwood paste, die and then the conduit is maintained. Perhaps the Old Gods penalized the CoTF for either using magic (The Neck and Arm of Dorne) or using it and mucking it up and thus they are "fallen from grace". Maybe getting mankind to the weirwood throne was their promise to the Old Gods to get back into grace.

[Melifeather]

There's definitely something important about a human greenseer, and it must be a condition of the Pact. Only death can pay for life. We are all familiar with the story of the Night's King and how he was sacrificing children....

[redriver]

I'm not suggesting Bran is "seeing" through the weirwood" when he connects with Jon,I'm suggesting that nearby weirwoods facilitate the connection.A way round the Wall that BR uses in Bran's coma dream.

Even Jaime has a prophetic dream when he sleeps beside a weirwood stump.Bran is in Winterfell,which has weirwoods.Though Jon is sleeping above the tree line,his subconscious mind is in Ghost,who is in the forest,which contains weirwoods.

I think Bran himself is asleep during the connection,given his hazy recollection of it afterwards.

[ELITEFORCE850]

Maybe the human greenseer either has something to do with not being cut off by the spells within the wall or the ability to communicate via the weirnet into humans dreams. As Bran appeared to John as a weirwood tree and most likely Blood Raven appears as a crow I am thinking that the image of a COTF projects in the dream state may not be able to be comprehended by a human's conscious/unconscious and then the language barrier may be an issue, maybe a human vassal is needed for the greenseer to not only watch all, but be able to communicate with those they watch and give the nudge to put actions/plans into motion. Of course this is based on the thinking that the greenseers cannot choose the avatar they appear as in the dream state.