Stoneheart or Dondarrion?

[MCBC]

I'm going to go with Beric Dondarion on this one. Beric could talk & I find Stoneheart to be way to one-dimensional because she can't.

[DogLover]

Stoneheart is pretty much leading the war against the Lannisters at this point. She's a serious rival; Dondarrion was just an annoyance.

Yep. I 100% agree with this.

[Dick Crabb]

On topic: Beric. A million times, Beric. I liked Cat and actually liked the twist of her resurrection. Didn't see it coming at all. But UnCat isn't Cat. I do take some delight in watching her terrorise the Freys but the BwB were so much more interesting under Beric. Now they're merely minions in her vendetta.

:agree:

[The Dragon has three heads]

Beric was too much for me, but at least he had the benefit of originality. This undead thing is the thing that comes closest to making me not want to read. As a narrative or a theme, it really annoys me. I am hoping Cat's the end of all that crap.

Some of you people are so god damn boring...from the very opening sequence to old nans tales, to the very first wight wee see, undeath and necromancy are integral to the plot. Deal With it.

Anyway.

The Beric storyline could be a novel(and may well be) in and of itself, it's 90% off screen, has all the correct Robin Hood references and is just damn cool. Knights of the hollow hill spin off? Yes please.

I digress. Berics blood set a sword to fire and he sacrificed his sense of self to continue "living" and fighting for the common people, the parallels with AA glaringly obvious.

Are all people given the kiss able to do this?

Uncat seems to prefer death by hanging, but, she also can't exist in her current form forever.

Her surviving children would think her a monster and I don't expect her to last another book, even if she is the only person still fighting for the north, which I love about her, stretch all their necks I say.

But in short, the ideals of Beric were to be saluted and respected, Cat is the seeker of vengeance 90% of readers really want. Good luck to her.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Jaime's arc is going to end up very closely tied to one of the Stark kids. Remember the dream he had while sleeping on a weirwood root? This is the dream that prompted him to return to Breinne, and we all know who is in control of the weirwood network. I suspect that Jaime will end up protecting Jon once it's revealed he is Rhaegar's son, Jaime always seemed to like Rhaegar. What ever happens with this trial with Uncat, Brienne, and Jaime is going to be very important.

I never realized it but there are 2 very important trials that should be at the beginning of the next book, both for the Lannister twins.

I like this theory a lot.

I preferred Beric to UnCat, because I am also part of the faction that mislikes the entire undead thing.

Stoneheart is doing a lot for the war and at this point, I think she will become even more powerful. However, I don't like reading about her because her unending thirst for vengeance is a bit annoying to me and yes, it makes her one-dimensional. She seems like she doesn't even have capacity for actual thought or emotion at this point. The storyline really loses its depth for me here.

[snowynightfall]

I thought zombies were uber-popular these days?! Not a fanatic myself :) but I've enjoyed all the UnDead storylines. I do hope Stoneheart doesn't last long though. She's alright jus other more interesting things happening to me. Definitely think Beric D. was much cooler and prefer his character! Wish we saw more!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Personally, I have no problem with undead being in the story. I think they serve an important part of the story. I have a problem with undead.

It's like the Walking Dead. I like them being the story. But I root against them (unless we're talking about TV Andrea, I'll root for the zombies then, but I'll shut up here before I go I into a big rant).

So, I dislike UnBeric and Stoneheart and was/would be all to happy to see him/her die, but I'm fine with them existing in story. I hope that makes sense. I'm really tired.

EDIT: I don't always have an issue with the undead. But ASoIaF has given me no reason to believe they are anything but bad.

[LordStoneheart]

except for the wights, which may or may not be directly controlled by the others, I don't consider Beric and Stoneheart zombies as we think of them. More like Lazaruses with decay. They seem mostly functional except for the wounds they do take. I did falsely hope that Stoneheart was getting better at one point, but now I've learned better.

Also, I find it strange that the "ice wights" are nothing more than what we'd call zombies, yet the "fire wights" are just like normal people. with less morals or parts of their personality i guess, but that could happen with any trauma. Perhaps intentional part of the dualism between ice and fire that has yet to be explained.

I like the undead aspect of these books, but I fucking hate zombie genres with a passion. Like the walking dead. the books do the "zombie" aspect way better than crappy zombie media today that just recycle old content and don't evolve.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Thematically what you're dealing with here is the idea of what it means to be godly and from that, where does the dogma start and the "truth" end.

By our interpretation as western "Christians" we are told to believe good old JHC was brought back after three days in a cave.

Now, cats spent three days in a river but only the BWB are calling her anything and only they know of how Beric came to be revived.

Is this a magic trick? or divine power being channeled through a priest? GRRM juggles this one all throughout the books, and now with brans seeming ascendancy as greenseer, someone who is actually worshipped by the first men through weirwoods, you have those same themes playing out.

How much does it take for other men to see you as something beyond their mortal understanding?

Exceedingly long life? Control of dead things? Control of living things? Control of kings, dragons, mastery of life and death. ALL of the high end "magical" charactors have and exhibit these powers. What bugs me is, is it divine magic or not...

[Gheimhridh ag teacht]

I forget exactly when, but Berick promised either Arya or Sansa something which I always thought was a main reason why he brought Catelyn back.

:agree:

Beric to Arya in Arya's last POV, A Storm of Swords Book 1..." 'I do not have the power to give you back your father, no more than Thoros does, but I can at least see that you are returned safely to your mother's arms.' 'Do you swear?', she asked him. Yoren had promised to take her home too, only he'd gotten killed instead. 'On my honour as a knight,' the lightening lord said solemnly."

I wonder, though. It's pointedly said that Yoren promised, but couldn't get her home, and Beric's promise rests on his 'honour as a knight'...but then again, he did everything in his power to get Arya back to Cat - giving his own life in the process.

However, I don't see a reunion on the cards - UnCat is too far gone on the vengeance trail to turn back into a loving mother who cares only about her kids. I agree that she's more likely to be involved in the Lannister finale, and part of their downfall.

[Waylin Stark]

Beric = Justice.

UnCat = Revenge.

'Nuff said.

[Just an archer]

I think Lady Stoneheart will go to Riverrun with the BWB during the Lannister-Frey wedding that is mentioned in Jaime's chapters and we will have the second part of the Red Wedding. We have seen that she only wants revenge and that wedding is perfect: the Red Wedding was planned by Lannisters, Freys and Bolton to kill the Starks and their men, this wedding will be a plan for a "Stark" (a former one at least), to kill the Lannisters and Freys.

Pity Bolton is in the North and can't attend.

I do not know if she will have another part to play, maybe.

Regarding the BWB, I liked it more when they were with Dondarrion. Their main focus was protecting the smallfolk not just plain revenge.

[Tommen]

I love Beric Dondarrion, and he deserves his peace. Catelyn as a shell of her former self is a satisfying turn of events for me, because in life she really pissed me off. At least now her judgement is directed at people who actually deserve it.

[Lord Warhammer]

Beric Dondarion was awesome. No contest between him and uncat for me. I would have actually have preferred Cat stayed dead.

:agree:

[modbelle]

Vote for BERIC: I liked Beric as a character. In a weird way he was a reminder that some men take oaths very seriously even after Eddard Stark's death (where many oaths seem thrown away before and after). He wants to die after the sixth time and has become further disconnected with his life, going so far as having to set aside his would be wife after the first time he died. He comes off as a man who is trying to fulfill his oaths- first to Eddard and then to Arya by raising Cat so there is a possibility they could met again. Though, I can't help but imagine there was a bit of relief for Beric that he can finally end his life with a reason and unlikelihood that Thoros would once again revive him. All this said I selfishly wish he stayed alive. I preferred the BWB and their objects under him rather than Lady Stoneheart- saving the peasants in the Riverlands while Arya handles Stark revenge whenever she gets back from the Free Cities (and possibly a few BWB members go rogue joining her).

I am not a fan of UnCat (I liked alive Catelyn), and this would probably be the case with any character I really knew before the became "UN" (Please don't let Jon become UNed). I also worry about how UnCat might effect other's storylines. I don't want Arya to kill her as others have speculated. It seems beyond cruel even if Arya is being taught death can be mercifull, and the mythical curses (kinslaying and breach of hospitality) I do believe hold sway in this world just like Greek and Roman mythology. Again too cruel. Also, I am sure that IF Brienne dies it will effect Jaime. Whether if it effects him in a positive light won't necessarily be the case. What if GRRM pulls a fast one and her death actually pulls Jaime out of his redemptive arc? What if he finally gives up on the knighthood and decides to become the lord that Tywin always wanted him to be? Honestly, I prefer Thoros to kill UnCat, the man who gave Beric life and passed it on to Cat, and Brienne to live.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Beric may have had his faults but he proved to be focused on protecting the smallfolk, and he didn't kill children.

UnCat is focused purely on revenge, and even went so far as to hang Pod for being Tyrion's squire and being with Brienne, even when he did nothing to harm her family.

Most of the BwBs looked the other way with Beric claiming he's "hard to kill" not actually giving him credit for being dead. With Uncat there's no denying that she's died and came back to life. The things that the Mountain did pale in comparison to the betrayal that the Freys did at the RW at least in the BwBs mind it goes against all rules of gods and men. Guest right was forsaken.

When Uncat is first resurrected the first thing they did was try to find Arya. The BwBs that are following unCat at that point are not looking for a ransom for Arya, they're trying to make good on the promise that Beric made to Arya. Remember it's Harwin that tries to convince Thoros to give Cat the kiss, not Beric.

Catelyn is not alone in wanting revenge. Some in the BwBs like "The Huntsman" have already gone pretty dark when Arya firsts meets them with his "crow cages". There's even some evidence like when Arya finds out about Joffrey it doesn't make her feel better, she wishes she'd killed him herself but killing the Tickler doesn't make her feel better either.

Beric to Arya in Arya's last POV, A Storm of Swords Book 1..." 'I do not have the power to give you back your father, no more than Thoros does, but I can at least see that you are returned safely to your mother's arms.' 'Do you swear?', she asked him. Yoren had promised to take her home too, only he'd gotten killed instead. 'On my honour as a knight,' the lightening lord said solemnly."

I wonder, though. It's pointedly said that Yoren promised, but couldn't get her home, and Beric's promise rests on his 'honour as a knight'...but then again, he did everything in his power to get Arya back to Cat - giving his own life in the process.

It's very clear that making a promise to Arya is a bad idea. Yoren promises to take her home and dies. Beric promises on his honor as a knight to see her safely returned to her mother's arms and he dies. Jaqen promises her three lives, no more, no less and the greedy wolf child finds a way to get more deaths out of Jaqen and Jaqen has to 'die'.

However, I don't see a reunion on the cards - UnCat is too far gone on the vengeance trail to turn back into a loving mother who cares only about her kids. I agree that she's more likely to be involved in the Lannister finale, and part of their downfall.

Technically Arya and Catelyn were reunited. Arya had to do the work herself though. As Nymeria she fishes Catelyn's body out of the river. There's a good chance that unCat and Nymeria could cross paths or even that they have, they're both in the Riverlands area and seem to be on the same page: vengence.

[LordStoneheart]

Why is vengeance better than justice?

Justice mostly just locks people up. Vengeance rids the world faster.

[ckal]

Although I was disappointed after the Lightning Lord was built up to be this ultimate bad ass that defies death....but turned out to be a guy that has died a bunch of times and was brought back to life, he is still a far better character than UnCat.

UnCat sucks.

[Vale of Tears]

I don't get what everyone is complaining about! It's about time somebody in this story got some revenge, even if she did go a little overboard. I think it works nicely too, because on the one hand we want some Stark vengeance, and on the other we've grown to like Pod and Jaime. It creates turmoil for the readers.

:agree:

Beric is one of the more tragic figures throughout the series, I felt bad at the way things played out for him even before his final death. It got to the point where he clearly had enough, he couldn't remember the woman he loved and he didn't want to cling to life much longer. So no slight against him, I think death for him was a mercy.

I am on the same page with this quote. My vote though has to go to LadyUncat Stoneheart. As much as I love the lightning lord , I get more satisfaction with the BWB under Uncat.

[jon stark I]

What did UnCat do that is considered as attrocities?I don't remember any bad thing but maybe my memory is a little rusty.(I too hate Uncat theme.I love Frey killing and all but why bring back Cat?)