Cersei's feminist characteristics do not pay for what she has done

[butterbumps!]

I never understood people who claimed she was some kind of feminist figure. Absolutely not. Only if you don't understand what feminism is.

This is also a strawman. No one would ever claim that Cersei is a feminist. You're missing the distinction between being a "feminist character" or "figure" as it pertains to the gender issues her mere existence in the text highlights and actually calling this character a feminist.

To reiterate:

A "feminist character" is a character whose existence in the text serves to bring to light feminist issues, which Cersei's character most certainly does-- in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story. Through Cersei, we also get commentary about how gender is a mere construct (when she talks about the differences between her and Jaime), and her arc is rife with her frustrations over not being taken as seriously as a man, which she attributes solely to gender.

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is probably a better term to describe her.

[Theda Baratheon]

As a feminist; Cersei is a very interesting character to look at for me, as she rebels at every turn against the patrarchal society holding HER down. Yes, she's not a feminist by all means, when she's only interested in her own self gain and repeatedly views other women as weak whilst wishing she had been born male.

This doesn't mean she isn't a very good character to look at though in regards to feminism as quite a lot of the issues she battles with are gender and social issues.

Cersei herself is a misogynist, and I really have never actually seen anyone say Cersei is some wonderful feminist role model.

Yeh, a lot of you might hate her; but I think she's fucking fantastic. :P

A pretty awful person in some regards? Well, yes. But so are many people in this series.

[Daena the Defiant]

No. Cersei has no feminist characteristics, she is not interested in the betterment of women. She is interested in the betterment of herself.

Now, as a feminist, she is a very interesting character to look at. But she's actually a pretty big misogynist.

I don't have enough dittos for this.

[The Frosted King]

Didn't Cersei do just that? From her perspective, getting rid of Robert was what needed to be done.

I wonder if you perhaps believe that submission is 'empowering' for male characters too?

Of course.

No healthy marriage is defined by a tyrant husband dictating everything towards his wife.

Give and take.

But Cersei is a taker, and believes Robert is weak expressly because he is a giver of sorts.

And getting rid of Robert is what needed to be done for her, because she committed high treason and Robert had no love for her.

Things were better under Robert. He wasn't perfect, but neither was he Aerys or Joffrey.

No, what the realm needed was trueborn heirs to the throne.

What it was given were three incestously bred bastards, with the first being a sadistic, cruel and glaringly stupid one at that.

[FuriousGeorge]

This is also a strawman. No one would ever claim that Cersei is a feminist. You're missing the distinction between being a "feminist character" or "figure" as it pertains to the gender issues her mere existence in the text highlights and actually calling this character a feminist.

To reiterate:

A "feminist character" is a character whose existence in the text serves to bring to light feminist issues, which Cersei's character most certainly does-- in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story. Through Cersei, we also get commentary about how gender is a mere construct (when she talks about the differences between her and Jaime), and her arc is rife with her frustrations over not being taken as seriously as a man, which she attributes solely to gender.

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is probably a better term to describe her.

If this is what was meant it should read Cersei's femininity is not enough to redeem what she has done, which like you said earlier in this thread isn't really a debate because its the same as saying Tywin's masculinity doesn't make what he does alright.

[bbstark]

And how many characters are actuallly "good" again? Jaime? Stannis? Tyrion? Tywin? Sandor? Bronn? I just don't see way Cersei has done that other fan favorites haven't. Stannis had a team of torturers on Dragonstone and burns people alive, Daenerys had several innocent people tortured before she realized how stupid that plan was, Tyrion makes singers into stew etc etc.

I love Cersei because she is a strong woman who's wickedly funny and doesn't mind giving a giant "fuck you" to the patriarchy-qualities that endear her to me more than Vic's "bad assert" for instance.

And I don't see how liking or rooting for morally suspect fictional characters casts aspirations on one's character. I fucking adore Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Euron, Sandor-it doesn't mean I condone their actions or would like to invite them to my birthday.

nonsense, I'd totally invite Cersei to my birthday, under the condition that she MUST say EVERYTHING she's thinking out loud.... she'd be like the drunk friend in the corner, saying shit we're all thinking and then we'd all crack up about it :D

[bbstark]

On a serious note, I basically agree with butterbumps:

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is probably a better term to describe her.

with the addition that it's feminist to holding her to an equal standard as men morally; Cersei is NOT a member of the "gentler sex". She downright obliterates the notion. It's a triumph for women that we are allowed to be psychopaths (yay...??)

[Dagon Greyjoy]

I don't think Cersei murdered Melara in order to prevent the prophecy from coming true: Wouldn't Melara surviving, marrying and birthing children pretty much negates Frog Maggy's prophecy? It was most likely a crime of passion, as Melara was quite openly aiming to seduce Jaime... Who was Cersei's lover.

That would make Cersei someone capable of committing a crime of passion, not a psychopath. She doesn't muse on how it had to be done to prevent the prophecy from coming true: She thinks Melara was a gold digger with ideas way above her station, who wanted to take Jaime away from her. Aye, Cersei is capable of committing murder from an early age... But so is pretty much everyone else in Westeros. Do I actually have to compile a list of all the Westerosi who have ever committed a murder (not a killing in combat, a murder.) Would be a pretty damn long list.

She doesn't encourage Joffrey to mistreat Sansa: Neither Cersei nor Tyrion think Joff should mistreat Sansa. They're both appalled when he does. Tyrion is brave and he tries to discipline Joffrey, Cersei knows (since Joff steps off the script and publicly orders Ned Stark's execution) that he's beyond discipline because he's batshit fucking crazy. Cersei angrily tells Joffrey it does not befit a king to mistreat his bride and that she won't tolerate it: When Joff circumvents her orders by having the Kingsguard beat Sansa, Cersei knows Joff is out of control. At this point (even though it would be actually detrimental to the Lannister cause if Sansa learned to do it) she advises Sansa to seduce, manipulate and come to control Joffrey in the same way she's come to seduce, manipulate and came to control men, including to an extent King Bob (whom Cersei reasonably sees as a vicious, nasty, deranged monster, not all that different from what Joff was to Sansa, all things considered).

She sees a lot of herself in Sansa: The pretty, idealistic, basically innocent girl who doesn't break down even when her situation goes to Hell. Cersei likes Sansa, she tries to mentor her (in her own screwed up way). Her advice is pretty mysoginistic. But it's actually reasonably advice in Westeros: The way women wield power in patriarchal societies is through exerting influence on men.

Cersei resents Sansa because she believes she had Joffrey murdered and escaped justice. She's grieving at the death of her insane son, grieving at the death of her psychopathic father, Jaime doesn't want her and her hated Tyrion is not there. She is used to relying on House Lannister for support, now she can't have it because Kevan wants to get rid of her. It's not unreasonable for a schemer like Cersei to think that Ser Kevan (who quite openly just doesn't like her) has come to some sort of agreement with House Tyrell to share power in King's Landing, sideline her and take Casterly Rock for himself in return.

When Cersei has no backers at all, she panics and starts making hasty and bad decisions all over. She always wanted to rule in her own right, but it's one thing to rule in your own right and to rule without loyal backers. That's why she surrounds herself with incompetent cronies, that's why she comes to trust Qyburn of all people, that's why she descends into self-destructive craziness. She's a tragic character, actually.

[maarsen]

Again correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Robert too drunk on his wedding night to actually have sexual intercourse with Cersei? And did she not use that to her advantage whenever she could? I also seem to remember her telling another character that when ever Robert wanted sex, she would get him drunk and give him a BJ, and by morning, Robert, feeling hungover and drained, would believe that he actually managed to "storm the gates". Yes she is not someone I would want to have long term relationship with, but she is a woman in "control" of her life in a decidedly male world. Actually I am not even sure I would try an extremely short term relationship with her either as I would risk losing my head. One or both of them.

She is a strong woman, playing by the rules that men have created, and "winning" at the game. It takes a special kind of person to let someone else choose the game, and the rules, and still win.

[Fetch me a block]

And how many characters are actuallly "good" again? Jaime? Stannis? Tyrion? Tywin? Sandor? Bronn? I just don't see way Cersei has done that other fan favorites haven't. Stannis had a team of torturers on Dragonstone and burns people alive, Daenerys had several innocent people tortured before she realized how stupid that plan was, Tyrion makes singers into stew etc etc.

I love Cersei because she is a strong woman who's wickedly funny and doesn't mind giving a giant "fuck you" to the patriarchy-qualities that endear her to me more than Vic's "bad assert" for instance.

And I don't see how liking or rooting for morally suspect fictional characters casts aspirations on one's character. I fucking adore Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Euron, Sandor-it doesn't mean I condone their actions or would like to invite them to my birthday.

Oh I'd definitely invite Cersei to my birthday ;) :love: :smileysex: :smileysex:

[Fetch me a block]

"It was only ever good w/ Jaime"

only being able to love your twin=only being able to love yourself

She is a psycho and definitely no feminist.

I love the op because I saw a lot of the same things.

you have my eternal respect

[Fetch me a block]

and the title itself: "Cersei's feminist characteristics do not pay for what she's done."

Fetch, the way this argument is set up gives me mild irritation. I have never once seen an argument for Cersei as a feminist. I've never seen anyone who admits the atrocities she's committed, but then excused them in light of all her good work on the advancement of female progress or some such. You're making an argument that you cannot possibly lose, because you're asserting a strawman that no one in their right mind would actually support.

I'm not sure if this is all a response to that thread about why Cersei is a "feminist character," and if so, the argument of that thread is not at all in contradiction to your claims here.

Cersei can be a "feminist character" because "feminist character" doesn't mean that the character is herself a feminist, and no one in their right mind would ever argue that Cersei is one.

A "feminist character" is a character whose existence in the text serves to bring to light feminist issues, which Cersei's character most certainly does-- in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story. Through Cersei, we also get commentary about how gender is a mere construct (when she talks about the differences between her and Jaime), and her arc is rife with her frustrations over not being taken as seriously as a man, which she attributes solely to gender.

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is probably a better term to describe her.

Although her struggles against the patriarchy may be seen as a facet to sympathize with, her reactions to it are not commendable, nor is her attitude: she wants to be at the top of the very system that served to oppress her. To mistake her actions for feminism is as ludicrous as calling LF a "Renaissance Man."

You've got me all wrong maaaaan, I was pointing out some people within the thread thought Cersei was a feminist, not the thread itself.

[butterbumps!]

You've got me all wrong maaaaan, I was pointing out some people within the thread thought Cersei was a feminist, not the thread itself.

Uh, what? That's exactly what I was responding to. I've never seen claims that Cersei is a feminist. I pointed out that you were confusing posters calling her a feminist character versus an actual feminist. In fact, the biggest Cersei "fans/ supporters" I know even came into this thread calling her a misogynist. I was calling shenanigans on your argument, which I still stand by given the responses in this thread.

[Fetch me a block]

Uh, what? That's exactly what I was responding to. I've never seen claims that Cersei is a feminist. I pointed out that you were confusing posters calling her a feminist character versus an actual feminist. In fact, the biggest Cersei "fans/ supporters" I know even came into this thread calling her a misogynist. I was calling shenanigans on your argument, which I still stand by given the responses in this thread.

Maybe I made a mistake in the title, but when someone says "feminist character" it is hard not to confuse with "feminist"

[Nephew of Dragons]

No. Cersei has no feminist characteristics, she is not interested in the betterment of women. She is interested in the betterment of herself.

Now, as a feminist, she is a very interesting character to look at. But she's actually a pretty big misogynist.

You took the words out of my, well, typing fingers. Honestly, I don't think she's quite smart enough to have true feminist leanings in her character. She would need to be more of an analytical thinker to see the true power in her position as a woman of Lannister, and would require that she stop constantly wishing that she were a dude. Most of all, she might have to stop HATING EVERY WOMAN WITH WHOM SHE COMES IN CONTACT if we to argue for her feminist leanings. She's the worst.

[side note: SHE WOULD HAVE MADE AN AWESOME DUDE!!]

[Mikkel]

Maybe I made a mistake in the title, but when someone says "feminist character" it is hard not to confuse with "feminist"

I agree, maybe it's because English isn't my first language, but when I hear "feminist character", I read that as "a character who is a feminist" (which Cersei clearly isn't, as has been said multiple times)

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

If Cercei is a feminist LF is a revolutionary! ;)

she didn´t pay for having done what ? :dunno: can you be more specific ?

For being a bitch? but then lots of characters havent paid for their wrongdoings too. much worst than CErsei

[Fender]

I think a lot of Catelyn's choices make sense when looked at from her POV. And I wouldn't put her in the same category as Lysa or Cersei.

Also, Cersei is a misogynist.

To be fair, she is also a misandrist.

[FuriousGeorge]

Uh, what? That's exactly what I was responding to. I've never seen claims that Cersei is a feminist. I pointed out that you were confusing posters calling her a feminist character versus an actual feminist. In fact, the biggest Cersei "fans/ supporters" I know even came into this thread calling her a misogynist. I was calling shenanigans on your argument, which I still stand by given the responses in this thread.

Yes but those posters are confusing the political doctrine/philosophy of feminism with the way in which every female character constructs their femininity. You can have a feminist reading of GoT or specific characters like Cersei but you cannot call her a 'feminist character' or say she has 'feminist characteristics' because she does not exist in a world where feminism exists as a concept. You could possibly call her a protofeminist but even that is a massive stretch..

[Currawong]

and the title itself: "Cersei's feminist characteristics do not pay for what she's done."

Fetch, the way this argument is set up gives me mild irritation. I have never once seen an argument for Cersei as a feminist. I've never seen anyone who admits the atrocities she's committed, but then excused them in light of all her good work on the advancement of female progress or some such. You're making an argument that you cannot possibly lose, because you're asserting a strawman that no one in their right mind would actually support.

I'm not sure if this is all a response to that thread about why Cersei is a "feminist character," and if so, the argument of that thread is not at all in contradiction to your claims here.

Cersei can be a "feminist character" because "feminist character" doesn't mean that the character is herself a feminist, and no one in their right mind would ever argue that Cersei is one.

A "feminist character" is a character whose existence in the text serves to bring to light feminist issues, which Cersei's character most certainly does-- in fact, her decision to choose the father of her children despite the laws of succession that forbid this is a feminist issue that frames the entire story. Through Cersei, we also get commentary about how gender is a mere construct (when she talks about the differences between her and Jaime), and her arc is rife with her frustrations over not being taken as seriously as a man, which she attributes solely to gender.

The point is that Cersei can be called a "feminist character" because her arc does call into question the gender issues within the context of the story quite clearly. However, she's obviously not a feminist, and in fact, "misogynist" is probably a better term to describe her.

Although her struggles against the patriarchy may be seen as a facet to sympathize with, her reactions to it are not commendable, nor is her attitude: she wants to be at the top of the very system that served to oppress her. To mistake her actions for feminism is as ludicrous as calling LF a "Renaissance Man."

:agree: Thanks for a great post as usual, buttterbumps!

When you look at the history of feminism, you will see that there is of course, no single type of 'feminist'. The term 'feminist' covers a huge spectrum, and it is a mistake to say that someone is not a feminist just because she perhaps falls at one of the extremes. For examp[le, there are those who marched in the good old 'burn the bra' days and turned up to all the protests and so on; like suffragettes, chaining themselves to railings and getting thrown into gaol, etc and bringing their cause to public attention. There are those who demonstrated their disgust at the masculine tone of society and the expected role of women by dressing like men, refusing to wear makeup, dress in the 'expected' ways of society, and so on. There are also many women who simply and quietly went about changing things behind the scenes, being brilliant at their chosen careers, balancing careers and families, and also managing to act as mentors and examples for women who followed them. And there are those who aggressively pursued their own careers, fighting tooth and nail against entrenched attitudes and battling men all the way - even sometimes men who would support them. Alas, it has been my painful experience that many of the women who were like this and were determined 'to succeed on their own in a man's world' were not at all supportive of other women, and often tended to look down on women who were not 'strong enough' to fight like they did. Just because you had a woman at the helm, either in charge of the overall organisation or major sections of it, did not in practice result in any great benefits for women at lower levels.

I have always seen Cersei as one of these latter types. She was - quite rightly - angry at the enforced role of women in Westerosi society, and saw the hypocrisy when she was treated differently when she and Jaime swapped clothes and she was 'Jaime'. Being treated as a bargaining chip and broodmare in her father's various political machinations only flamed her anger at this injustice. Alas, her tragedy is that her personality combined the rather dangerous traits of great ambition, righteous anger at the gender injustices, and simple selfishness. Perhaps if Joanna had lived, she might have been able to moderate these to some extent, and show Cersei that in some things, managing quietly 'behind the scenes' can be more effective than bashing down the front door. Olenna Tyrell demonstrates this; she in her own way is no less ambitious than Cersei, and has an extremely powerful position in her own family. Its just that she has chosen to go about things in a very different way, and has passed on many of those skills and that knowledge to Margaery.

Unfortunately of course, Joanna died and Tywin Lannister became Cersei's model of 'what' she wanted and how to achieve that. Having seen Tywin in action, is it any wonder that Cersei eventually developed some of the attitudes she displays? You can't of course totally blame Tywin for what Cersei became, but he was definitely the 'model' for so many of her actions. The irony is of course that she was also in direct conflict with him, because he certainly did not appreciate her open attempts to grab power and be independent of what he saw as her proper role. The selfishness and the mistreatment of other women is alas, pure Cersei, but again, I have seen this from self-styled feminists IRL, so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I think GRRM has written a brilliant character in Cersei, one who in many respects has probably sowed the seeds of her own destruction. I love reading about her: I don't like her. But I think it is a mistake not to see her as a 'feminist', though again, that depends on your own definition of the term. Many younger women today simply take for granted the benefits that were won in past generations by 'feminists', some of whom were most certainly Cersei types.