[Book Spoilers] Surprise Engagements

[jarl the climber]

I can imagine the QoT refusing Tywin's offer of Cersei's hand, in that amusing way of hers.

Thats how it worked out with WIlas in the books, more or less. Tywin considered the refusal to be a slight all though he kept the knowledge from Cersei and told Tyrion that it would be better if nobody knows the offer was ever made. Tyrion thought Tywin would exact some sort of revenge against the Tyrells somewhere down the road for it.

Its interesting that when Tywin and Littlefinger were talking about an alliance with the Tyrells in Season 2, LF sold it by saying it was a temporary thing and at the right time Tywin could move against the Tyrells and punish them for going against Joffrey initially. What is Tywin going for another Robert type marriage where they have Cersei pop out a couple of kids and then kill off Loras so they can steal Highgarden from them? This kind makes me think that the Tyrells will manipulate Joff into naming Loras to the Kingsguard, which is an honor but it can also be refused.

I also did not like the way Loras was portrayed. He came off like he was a slut. Now if the seducer guy had acted more innocent like he was a gay guy in a closeted society and was afraid of exposing himself but had heard rumors about Renly and Loras so he kind of opened up to Loras who felt compassion for him, it might not have seemed so gratuitious, like they were throwing in some gay sex to keep the gay fans happy and stereotyping Loras as the Queer Lord who wants to sit on a throne of dildos or some sort of crap like that.

[juanml82]

I think they might omit Loras - kingsguard story altogether...

Option 1 -

It might sound crazy (and would undermine the role of Oberyn in the next season) but just as possibility... what if they will really marry Sersei to Loras?

For the next seasons he might take over the functions of Mace tyrrel as well, being in Small council, etc.....

Option 2 - Sersei is bethrothed to Loras and weddinng is intended to Happen after Jofreys wedding, so PW, Tyrions trials, Tywins funeral might give Sersei an excuse to postpone the marriage till Season 5... In Season 5 when Loras goes to Dragonstone while Sersei plots against Margery he might be still oficcially a groom for Sersei and it will be his wounding / margerys arrest that will ruin the marriage pact.

We don't know whats in store for their characters in the future books anyway

Well, that saves them a character, makes a change from the books and solves the whole Highgarden heir issue (which I don't think non book readers have even noticed anyway, though). It might very well be.

[DemiNymph]

I'm surprised there isn't a Ros appearance in this episode. *snark*

[Demandred]

I was just annoyed by what they're doing to Loras. So, he blurts out his family's ambitions to a guy who he just met and screwed? Surely they could have come up with a better way for Littlefinger to find out the Tyrell intentions.

[jarl the climber]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Tywin tries to marry Cersei to Oberyn as well later in ASOS. Oberyn implies that Cersei had tries to seduce him herself, offering him marriage if he found the imp guilty. Her staying single, like in the books just seems like it would work better. Plus it will keep her from getting charged with adultery.

[StarkTagaryen]

Yeah I could've done without the baby jars.

completely unnecessary her mental instability was clear without it

[ugashep]

completely unnecessary her mental instability was clear without it

Couldn't agree more, gross, I fast forwarded through that on the rewatch this morning.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Only slightly related to the thread topic, but the baby jars and Loras' loose lips (while a little too dead on for my tastes) makes sense when you think of how little time we have to show all this story.

There just isn't enough time to sow these things in more than one scene.

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm surprised there isn't a Ros appearance in this episode. *snark*

Ros is an exposition tool and is used when you need things to be said out loud that were only thought in the books. This episode didn't cover that many internal scenes so she wasn't needed.

[Golden Lion]

Actually she is very incompetent at the game and while she makes one or two competent moves, they only work in the short term. Overall, she cannot grasp the full situation enough to be competent at the game.

How? Her dealing with Robert, the Stark household and Ned were very competent moves that were well executed. The only thing that undermined that was Joffrey, which has nothing to do with Cersei.

The wildfire used in the blackwater was Cersei's plan, having Tyrion killed during the battle was another well planned move that was foiled due to pod.

The only badly executed move I can think of is kidnapping ros/chatayaya (though it was more provoked than strategic).

She's not incompetent just because other characters intervene or just get lucky, that doesn't undermine her game play.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Surprised me but makes sense. Gives him a reason to join the KG.

At first I was upset but then THIS totally makes sense.

[bobbybuilderton]

How? Her dealing with Robert, the Stark household and Ned were very competent moves that were well executed. The only thing that undermined that was Joffrey, which has nothing to do with Cersei.

The wildfire used in the blackwater was Cersei's plan, having Tyrion killed during the battle was another well planned move that was foiled due to pod.

The only badly executed move I can think of is kidnapping ros/chatayaya (though it was more provoked than strategic).

She's not incompetent just because other characters intervene or just get lucky, that doesn't undermine her game play.

Her moves only work in the short term. Her paranoia and gender frustration make her short sighted. Joffrey is only in a position to kill Ned because in her desire for power she put a child on the throne that it should have been clear she wouldn't be able to control. That conversation about the standing army? Whaaa?

The wildfire is a battle tactic, not a political move. Even then, wildfire is extremely dangerous and she knows that. The decision to put people at risk the way she did could be argued to be quite reckless. Tyrion says there was enough wildfire there to level the city (foreshadowing at her descent into the same madness that King Aerys had? Perhaps)

Yes, spare him and send him to the wall. Where the other northerners who know him would be appalled at the accusation that Eddard Stark would betray Robert, could easily visit him to find out the truth anyway, and still lead a rebellion. Now, honestly there was just no good way to handle that situation. The fact is the consequences caught up to the brotherfucker and the best thing to do would have been to run, as Ned offered her the chance to do. But because she wanted to be all-powerful queen, she was like "lol no" and chose the course of action that had no way of ending well.

Besides, as it was stated, most of the proof she is incompetent is after Tyrion is gone. Once she truly is left to make her own decisions, things go horribly. Oh hey bank who's notorious for getting their money however they need to, that money we owe? Lol nah, wait til this war is over.

Oh hey religious zealots, you can form your military again. It's all good!

Oh hey people who try to give me sensible advice. I'm just going to assume you're plotting against me and have you thrown out and replaced.

Oh hey Littlefinger, let's pretend this girl is Arya Stark, even though I have absolutely no proof that Arya Stark is dead other than my own assumptions. Nevermind that if Arya isn't dead, she looks enough like her parents to discredit the impostor.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

She's not incompetent just because other characters intervene or just get lucky, that doesn't undermine her game play.

Actually it's the other way around. Although she is clever enough to realize she can kill Robert using his own weaknesses against him, her plan of getting him drunk and then encouraging him to do dangerous things (she didn't order anything as a result of her conversation with Ned - it was already in the works) is just willy nilly and the timing of his actual death was very lucky for her. By the same account, he would have killed the boar returned to King's Landing and Ned would have shared his news with Robert about Cersei's treason. It was all left to chance and extremely risky.

Her moves against Ned were well executed but I would wager my fortune that Littlefinger helped tremendously with that plan. He says as much to Ned when he tells Ned to move against Cersei but Ned refuses. At that point, it is Littlefinger that persuades the guards to side with Cersei and not the Hand.

The wildfire was a great idea but left with no real plan for execution. Had Tyrion not formulated his plan for the substance, Cersei's plan was to dump it and light it. Bye bye, King's Landing. Cersei's plan to kill Tyrion was not solid either which is probably why Tyrion is alive.

Cersei is not dumb but she is hardly competent and cannot really make strategic plans. That is her major flaw when it comes to playing the game. She doesn't see the whole board nor anticipate many of the moves so her short sighted plans usually fail or succeed if she has a bit of luck.

[Joyful Union]

I agree with Ser Pounce, Cersei really doesnt plan more than three steps ahead. Her plan to outmaneuvre Ned for example, was absolutely terrible. If she hadnt been incredibly lucky, Robert wouldnt have come across a huge boar while reeling from wine, and she and her children would have been executed when he got back.

[Frumpus]

Loras will join the KG before he gets to marry Cersei. This will be the Tyrells' way of getting back at the Lannisters for denying them Sansa.

Why do people keep insisting Loras must join the KG on the show?

You realize that as Mace's only son, Loras is the heir of highgarden? That would no longer be the case if he became KG!

If the writers actually go through with this, then they are not thinking of the consequences they made for themselves when they cut Willas and Garlan.

There is absolutely no reason for Loras to join the KG on the tv show because they haven't made a big deal out of the kingsguard. Nobody even knows who is officially on it.

[Colonel Green]

Oh hey Littlefinger, let's pretend this girl is Arya Stark, even though I have absolutely no proof that Arya Stark is dead other than my own assumptions. Nevermind that if Arya isn't dead, she looks enough like her parents to discredit the impostor.

That's a perfectly fine idea. That Arya isn't dead is a pretty monumental plot contrivance, when looked at realistically (not that it's a bad thing, mind you; it's a story). Arya's been MIA for years at that point. The most logical assumption would be that she died somewhere in King's Landing and was never found.

[bobbybuilderton]

That's a perfectly fine idea. That Arya isn't dead is a pretty monumental plot contrivance, when looked at realistically (not that it's a bad thing, mind you; it's a story). Arya's been MIA for years at that point. The most logical assumption would be that she died somewhere in King's Landing and was never found.

It may be a logical assumption but the point is that its just that-- an assumption. She doesn't know for sure that Arya's dead and that makes it a poor decision. Yeah it's reasonable to think she is, but don't go trying to cement alliances based off of something that can come crumbling down around you at any given moment.

[giant snake]

Why do people keep insisting Loras must join the KG on the show?

You realize that as Mace's only son, Loras is the heir of highgarden? That would no longer be the case if he became KG!

If the writers actually go through with this, then they are not thinking of the consequences they made for themselves when they cut Willas and Garlan.

There is absolutely no reason for Loras to join the KG on the tv show because they haven't made a big deal out of the kingsguard. Nobody even knows who is officially on it.

You're right about the KG being insignificant in the show, but they way they totally changed the character of Loras is confusing to me. He was never the 16 year old boy with stars in his eyes. Well obviously everyone is a few years older in the show, but that isn't enough to make into some kind of cynical pawn of his family. His being in mourning for Renly explained his willingness to sacrifice everything else and join the KG.

What is really baffling to me: why is it that when there is a gay character in these HBO series, they are really just a parasite who either cares for no one at all or simply wants to manipulate events to their advantage? Are they trying to keep the ratio of gay sex scenes higher at the expense of character development?

[Golden Lion]

Actually it's the other way around. Although she is clever enough to realize she can kill Robert using his own weaknesses against him, her plan of getting him drunk and then encouraging him to do dangerous things (she didn't order anything as a result of her conversation with Ned - it was already in the works) is just willy nilly and the timing of his actual death was very lucky for her. By the same account, he would have killed the boar returned to King's Landing and Ned would have shared his news with Robert about Cersei's treason. It was all left to chance and extremely risky.

Her moves against Ned were well executed but I would wager my fortune that Littlefinger helped tremendously with that plan. He says as much to Ned when he tells Ned to move against Cersei but Ned refuses. At that point, it is Littlefinger that persuades the guards to side with Cersei and not the Hand.

The wildfire was a great idea but left with no real plan for execution. Had Tyrion not formulated his plan for the substance, Cersei's plan was to dump it and light it. Bye bye, King's Landing. Cersei's plan to kill Tyrion was not solid either which is probably why Tyrion is alive.

Cersei is not dumb but she is hardly competent and cannot really make strategic plans. That is her major flaw when it comes to playing the game. She doesn't see the whole board nor anticipate many of the moves so her short sighted plans usually fail or succeed if she has a bit of luck.

The same could be said for other players, the luckiest people when it comes to plots in westeros are Tyrion and Littlefinger. Things just fall into their laps.

Varys, Cersei, Marg etc all play the same but they don't benefit from the same amount of luck as the others.

But the throne room scene was already set, whether or not the city watch followed Ned the Lannisters were already butchering house Stark, if they took the Lannisters hostage then Cersei already had Sansa to barter with. Not to mention the Lannister forces are far greater than the watch, an army would march on King's Landing and liberate them quickly enough at which time Littlefinger would still betray Ned because Littlefinger doesn't like being on the losing side. It was a good plan that anticipated Littlefinger going where the power is.

I agree Cersei's luck for plans runs out about SOS, but I still think she's a competent player before she goes batshit with grief and paranoia. After that she's a timebomb.

Her moves only work in the short term. Her paranoia and gender frustration make her short sighted. Joffrey is only in a position to kill Ned because in her desire for power she put a child on the throne that it should have been clear she wouldn't be able to control. That conversation about the standing army? Whaaa?

The wildfire is a battle tactic, not a political move. Even then, wildfire is extremely dangerous and she knows that. The decision to put people at risk the way she did could be argued to be quite reckless. Tyrion says there was enough wildfire there to level the city (foreshadowing at her descent into the same madness that King Aerys had? Perhaps)

Yes, spare him and send him to the wall. Where the other northerners who know him would be appalled at the accusation that Eddard Stark would betray Robert, could easily visit him to find out the truth anyway, and still lead a rebellion. Now, honestly there was just no good way to handle that situation. The fact is the consequences caught up to the brotherfucker and the best thing to do would have been to run, as Ned offered her the chance to do. But because she wanted to be all-powerful queen, she was like "lol no" and chose the course of action that had no way of ending well.

Besides, as it was stated, most of the proof she is incompetent is after Tyrion is gone. Once she truly is left to make her own decisions, things go horribly. Oh hey bank who's notorious for getting their money however they need to, that money we owe? Lol nah, wait til this war is over.

Oh hey religious zealots, you can form your military again. It's all good!

Oh hey people who try to give me sensible advice. I'm just going to assume you're plotting against me and have you thrown out and replaced.

Oh hey Littlefinger, let's pretend this girl is Arya Stark, even though I have absolutely no proof that Arya Stark is dead other than my own assumptions. Nevermind that if Arya isn't dead, she looks enough like her parents to discredit the impostor.

Are we reading the same book?

Ned couldn't start a rebellion from the wall because they have his daughter, that's the only reason he confessed in the first place. It wasn't half baked, he was a confessed traitor. And Ned's suggestion would have meant to her own death or exile, and those of her children.

And I think you're completely missing the point about how decisions after Tyrion leaves, she's a completely different person after Joffrey and Tywin die. She loses most of her faculties and becomes cripplingly paranoid, which makes her even easier to be manipulated and from that make terrible decisions. That's not the same Cersei from books 1-3, once her father and son die she's broken with nothing but fleeting power as the Tyrells control the king and the capital, her family all turn on her the few that are alive. She's unstable for a reason and it's not incompetence.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

She's unstable for a reason and it's not incompetence.

The reason Tywin would do something so absolutely out of character like appointing Tyrion as acting Hand of the King is entirely due to Cersei and the Small Council's incompetence.

Of course the small council is comprised of two people who actually want the Lannisters to become unstable and 2 people who do whatever Cersei demands.