Tyrion is a good person

[Minsc]

Being ridiculed by King effing Joff for not doing so. I think he deserves a little more credit than just not being a monster.

Wait so not wanting to be made fun of is an acceptable pressure for someone to rape somebody?

Simply, I don't care about who ordered Tyrion to do it or who ridiculed him for it not raping someone isn't an act of goodness but basic human deceny.

[Light a wight tonight]

Wait so not wanting to be made fun of is an acceptable pressure for someone to rape somebody?

Simply, I don't care about who ordered Tyrion to do it or who ridiculed him for it not raping someone isn't an act of goodness but basic human deceny.

I submit that if Tywin Lannister ordered you to do something you'd damn well do it.

[Minsc]

I submit that if Tywin Lannister ordered you to do something you'd damn well do it.

You mean like ordering you not to bring a whore to King's Landing?

And no when someone orders to rape someone I don't care who they are that doesn't make it okay or an act of goodness to refuse.

[Light a wight tonight]

You mean like ordering you not to bring a whore to King's Landing?

So Tyrion was a ballsy dude, what can I say? Actually Tyrion was ordered not to get caught bringing the whore. Tywin didn't give a good rat if Tyrion was patronizing ladies of negotiable virtue but he didn't want it to be public.

[Dr. Pepper]

Maybe I've just misread the chapter several times over, but I was under the impression that Tyrion didn't choose to refrain from sex with Sansa out of the goodness of his heart or to defy his father, but because he wants the fantasy. He had every intention of having sex with her. He ordered her naked, to lie on the bed and then touched her breast. He became bitter when she wasn't falling for his "in the dark, I'm the knight of flowers" speech. He can't buy the fantasy from her with gold like he could Shae and since Tyrion is in the habit of buying these things, the only currency he could offer her was a promise that he'd wait until she wanted it. He remained bitter that this currency didn't work. He most certainly would have gone for it if Sansa expressed her love and adoration, because that's what Tyrion likes and wants.

[Minsc]

So Tyrion was a ballsy dude, what can I say?

Thus Tyrion shown that he is willing to disregard Tywin's commands, thus him refusing to listen to daddy and rape Sansa still isn't an act of goodness but basic human deceny.

[jarl the climber]

David Selig already provided quotes proving that Tyrion indeed was willing to attack the Vale.

As far as the Vale thing goes I can not really blame Tyrion for wanting to attack them. Staying out of the war has now put them in a commanding posistion and this could very well be to his families detriment. He was the only one who saw LF as being a threat. He knows that by attacking Lysa he is also attacking Petyr. Attacking the Vale after Duskendale and the Blackwater actually makes sense in some ways. Giving Petyr a free hand cetrtianly seems like an error. Tywins policy of arming the Moutian Clans as punishment, after all its Tywin who agrees to arm them, was probaly sufficeint in his mind. At the end of the day the Clans gave Tyrion safe passage, fought at the GF, and played a role in the defense of Kings Landing. They received these arms in payment for their services to the crown and house Lannister. Nor do we know the historical arguements that the Clan people might have with the Lords of the Vale. Tyrion was being hot headed anyways, I beleive we are told that by the end of ASOS the East Road was all ready blocked with snow. An attack was not realistic.

[Max Greyjoy]

I haven't read all the comments, only responding to the initial OP, but I have noticed how since ADWD he has been demonized for his actions. He's not an evil person, but I do agree that he's not the best out of the bunch, but he's been told what an evil scumbag he is and he's been treated horribly by his family (with the exception of Jaime).

As a result of that he wants to show how much of an evil person he can be. This does not excuse his actions, but it does give a clearer picture into the person he has and will become.

[Lyanna Stark]

Why? I am in no way implying rape is a good thing. It is a vile act, the lowest of the low. I don't want any mods to think I'm endorsing it or anything like that.

Then perhaps you should consider why not raping someone isn't an act of kindness but instead basic human decency?

Tyrion is a great character, very interesting and complex. To reduce him to being a "good guy" is to do grrm's writing a huge disservice.

[Éadaoin]

Choosing to not rape someone doesn't make you a good person.

Tyrion is, IMO, a dark grey character capable of acts of goodness. He is not an overall good person. And he is Lannister to the bone.

[Summerqueen]

Tyrion is accountable for his actions. If you can examine the actions and consider them as causing more harm than good, logic dictates that they are not "good" actions. A person who claims to mean well, does harm, and then justifies his actions is not a good guy, he's a shirker of responsibility. Evil? No. Human? Yes. Flawed? Very.

[Ska∂i]

I am one of the Tyrion fans as well =) I enjoy reading his chapters a lot – he is witty, funny and interesting and I find his character arc to be one of the most fascinating in the whole series. Born a dwarf he never got anything but contempt from his father and sister but he still tried to do what was best for his family. He served as hand to his horrible nephew and did his best to keep the people of Kingslanding fed and alive, even though they ridiculed and hated him. He was the one who ensured their victory in the battle of the Blackwater but then his father took all the credit.

Tyrion’s relationship to women is obviously not a healthy one but I can’t really blame him for (most of) that. His condition and his father’s lie about Tysha made him believe that no woman would ever truly love him but due to the fact that he was born into a rich and powerful family, he could at least buy the pretense of affection in the form of whores. Obviously, he was aware of the apprehension those women felt towards him and knew that it was only his money they responded to and not himself as a human being. I believe it is not surprising, that he grew resentful of the people who despised him for WHAT he is and never bothered to find out WHO he is. The fact that his siblings are the exact opposite of him – tall, beautiful and respected – and thereby remind him of all the things he can never be or have, must have been additionally frustrating.

After Joffrey’s murder, when everyone turned against him and even Shae, the woman he (falsely) believed had at least grown fond of him over all the time she had spent in his company, betrayed him, he was in a very dark place. But then, on top of everything else, he learned that Jamie, the only family member who had ever treated him with respect, had lied to him about Tysha, and that Shae is now sleeping with his father, a man who has always treated Tyrion like a sex-crazed pervert for bedding whores, and he finally snapped. I have to admit that the following chapters of self-pity and drunken rage are not my most favorite but if I had lived through everything Tyrion has gone through, I am pretty sure no one would enjoy being in my head either :dunno:

So, to conclude my rambling: I think Tyrion is one of the most interesting characters, even though he is certainly not a truly “good” guy but very few of the people in this series are and in my opinion, this is what makes A Song of Ice and Fire such a fascinating story to read.

This is so well stated. I agree with all of the above.

Tyrion is definitely one of the most complex characters in the series, IMO, and that is what makes him compelling. Unfortunately, the list of "good deeds" in the original post kicking off with "not raping Sansa" is not a great testament to his character and unlikely to win anyone over. lol

[Lord Damian]

Tyrion knows and knew the truth about his siblings and the kids incest bastardry. he is a traitor and has committed grievous acts to help conspire their crimes. His smart ass mouth got him in trouble more than once, especially calling out Cat Stark in the Inn when clearly he could tell she was tryint to keep a low profile (he already suspected at that point that Bran was pushed off the tower). I truely hate to think what he woud do to Sansa now if he was to return with Dany. (Tyrion thinks Sansa poisoned Joff and he got blamed for it)

[SaltpansResident]

Well, we don't know what he would do to Sansa, but what he believes he would do is nothing. In one of his chapters he says something about having placed the cloak of his protection around her, and not being willing to recede from that regardless of her actions.

I am wondering if what makes people like myself like Tyrion so much more than other characters is that he so often is depicted as yearning for love. More so than any other character I think, except maybe Jon.

[DaveRoid]

Tryion is silver white compared to 95% of westroes.

[Minsc]

Tryion is silver white compared to 95% of westroes.

Just off the top of my head characters that more white then Tyrion:

Aemon, Arya, Arys, Barristan, Benjen, Beric, Bran, Brienne, Brynden, Catelyn, Dany, Davos, Doran, Edmure, Edric, Garlan, Gendry, Gilly, Hodor, Hot Pie, Jeor, Jojen, Jon C., Jon S., Jory, Kevan, Loros, Luwin, Mace, Margaery, Meera, Myrcella, Ned, Qhorin, Renly, Robb, Rodrick C., Sam, Sansa, Thoros, Tommen

Next, people like Jaime, Robert, Sandor, Stannis, and Theon are probably located in a similar dark grey area as Tyrion.

[The Red Hand]

Yes, Tyrion does want to be liked. He is a very conflicted character, but you cannot deny that he would have done terrible things to Tommen if he had him in his possession. Tyrion doesn't get much points for feeling relieved that he didn't have to do something that was morally repulsive. He was basically acting on the same moral level as Cersei. Take that in.

I don't think those quotes prove that Tyrion would have hurt Tommen, he debates it with himself then shows relief when he finds out he doesn't have Tommen. It may have been relief at not having to consider something so terrible. Also, I don't remember Cersei showing much moral repulsion in her chapters.

Wait so not wanting to be made fun of is an acceptable pressure for someone to rape somebody?

Simply, I don't care about who ordered Tyrion to do it or who ridiculed him for it not raping someone isn't an act of goodness but basic human deceny.

Maybe to us, but it still remains that few people in Westeros would care if Sansa wasn't willing; she was his wife and it was his duty to produce an heir. Tyrion would have benifitted a lot from raping Sansa and I say it's a mark of a decent person that he didn't. A metaphor for our time; choosing not to beat up an old lady and take her purse doesn't make you a good person, but finding her purse in the park(with no one around to see you steal it) and still choosing to turn it in without a reward makes you a good person.

P.S. I finally played Baldur's Gate and got the reference. Brilliant.

Maybe I've just misread the chapter several times over, but I was under the impression that Tyrion didn't choose to refrain from sex with Sansa out of the goodness of his heart or to defy his father, but because he wants the fantasy. He had every intention of having sex with her. He ordered her naked, to lie on the bed and then touched her breast. He became bitter when she wasn't falling for his "in the dark, I'm the knight of flowers" speech. He can't buy the fantasy from her with gold like he could Shae and since Tyrion is in the habit of buying these things, the only currency he could offer her was a promise that he'd wait until she wanted it. He remained bitter that this currency didn't work. He most certainly would have gone for it if Sansa expressed her love and adoration, because that's what Tyrion likes and wants.

I saw it differently; I saw Tyrion gradually forcing himself to do something he felt was terrible then not doing it for no other reason that he felt it was wrong. If Sansa had expressed her "love and adoration" then it wouldn't have been rape(in Tyrion''s eyes).

Thus Tyrion shown that he is willing to disregard Tywin's commands, thus him refusing to listen to daddy and rape Sansa still isn't an act of goodness but basic human deceny.

He takes Shae to court but is still very careful to make sure Tywin doesn't find out. Hes willing to disobey Tywin but if he really disregarded his commands he wouldn't care if Tywin found out.

[Minsc]

Also, I don't remember Cersei showing much moral repulsion in her chapters.

Being more moral then Cersei is hardly praise worthy.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just so people remember, rape is frowned upon in Westeros. Hence why Randyll Tarly hangs rapists and Jon encounter them on the Wall. So people claiming rape is "normal" are clearly wrong.

The Northmen are also greatly troubled by fake Arya's treatment and Jaime remembers how awful it was not to be able to save Rhaella from Aerys when he raped her.

[The Red Hand]

Being more moral then Cersei is hardly praise worthy.

On that we can agree. TheMysteriousOne said that Tyrion and Cersei were operating on the same moral level and that I disagreed with. Tyrion's gray; hes not a saint and hes not a monster.