What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?

[Le Cygne]

Sandor may care about Sansa but there is too much glossing over the brutal side of his character and no real assessment of the quality of his affection. I quoted part of the scene in ACOK where he terrifies her at knife point but I don't see any hint of that in your run through of the scene above. Stressing Sandor's gentle side and his protectiveness towards Sansa as if that is all there is is like lauding Jaime's honour and service in the King's Guard - there is a bloody big elephant in the corner you are ignoring.

Sansa stresses that part of him. Sansa doesn't see him as a threat. She sees him in quite the opposite way, as someone who protects her.

She says things like, harsh as he is he won't let any harm come to her, and Arya came to the same realization. He never hurt either one of them. And saved both of their lives.

That night, she was afraid, but then she wasn't. When she cups his cheek, that's the moment that she realizes the fire messed him up. She says that when she looks back on that night, too.

I wanted to answer the rest, I didn't have time before...

Maybe he is a saint now he has had time to dwell on his past errors on the Quiet Isle but we will see. I doubt it myself. It would take a powerful and fascinating character and in a Dickensian style ending turn him into someone entirely untrue to his character throughout the story.

Again, it's about what she wants. It's her story. When she prayed for him, she said gentle the rage, not turn him into a different person. She seems to like him the way he is.

As for the quality of his affection does the knife at her throat, the threat to kill her should she divulge his secrets and the constant see-saw between snarling at her and then protecting her not show how dangerous his regard for her is? Like being a gangster's moll once his eye settles on her she is never safe: he will protect her and cherish her when he wants and mistreat her and frighten her when his black rages or his drunken snarls are upon him. What has the poor girl done to deserve this?

It's difficult to see him as dangerous when he had any number of chances to hurt her, even when he was severely traumatized by the fire, and he didn't. I don't think she sees him as dangerous.

The Hound is not some Disney Beauty and The Beast caricature with a scarred face but a noble character and a heart of gold. He is a savage beast who cut Mycah in half and laughed in Ned's face when he flung his corpse at his feet. His repressed lust for Sansa is a danger to her not a shield. He may have been the only thing protecting her in KL (Tyrell manipulation, Dontos' false rescue, Tyrion's "cloak of protection") but that just shows how bad a place she was in, not how good a champion he is. In the Vale she has no one and thinks of him but what does this mean? That a protector who, however flawed, at least cared nothing for her claim to Winterfell or in using her as a pawn in power politics is better than LF / Lysa's plans? Sure. That he is her true shield and the only one she can rely on? Gah, no. :ack: Desperate is as desperate does.

If anyone is saying he's a Disney character with a heart of gold, I haven't seen it. But I think you're going to the opposite extreme with the savage beast thing.

He seems attracted to her and she seems attracted to him. There are plenty of other men she could be thinking about. There's something mutual going on there.

Also, he does not have it in him to be as gentle as Drogo proved to be with Dany: he is not that sort of character and bottom line is their interaction has been fascinating but he is bad news for her. Protection at that price is a poor bargain.

I think again, you need to look at what Sansa is saying, she seems to think otherwise in her POV's.

As for the SanSan stuff I understand why people point out the parts in Sansa's pov where she longs for safety and protection and thinks of Sandor but she is engaging in wishful thinking here as much as they, forgetting the bad and dangerous side of his character because there is no glimmer of hope if the truth is looked full in the face.

Nobody is forgetting anything. I think it's a matter of emphasis and you are obviously emphasizing different things than Sansa.

SanSan reminds me of Love in The Time of Cholera (Gabriel Garcia Marquez) where two characters build an intense attraction to each other after fleeting glimpses. After a time apart this builds in their minds into something that dominates their lives, and a belief that they are in love. When they next meet the "heroine" takes a good look at the "hero", realises that it was all her imagination, a castle she imagined in the clouds, rather than something she really felt and walks away. That's my take on Sansa and The Hound. If she ever thinks clearly from a place of safety she may feel pity, some empathy and good-natured hopes for his happiness but she will be glad she dodged a bullet.

They had more than fleeting glimpses, they saw each other every day for an extended period. And saw each other at their best and worst. It's up to them how they feel. Seems like they really care about each other.

In each case, I think my answer would be is, it's her story. All the reader can do is like the story or not. I think it's a good story and it's told well.

[DogLover]

Wow just a little condescending? Just a little rude? So an adult discussion about them and their time together is wonderful, can we try that?

I don't think Le Cygne is trying to be condescending (not her style). She's just pointing out the subtext.

What's wrong with Sandor? Come on. He's up there with Jaime in AGOT (and Theon in ACOK) as a character who does terrible things but people wish to be on the path to redemption. Some of the whitewashing above is pretty uncomfortable reading.

Sandor, unlike Jaime (whom I also adore), showed genuine remorse and is now seeking atonement for his egregious crimes/sins. Speaking for myself, that carries serious weight. Theon, whom I struggle with more, has also shown remorse and I think I just might be able to forgive him, as well. However, all three are fascinating characters because of their flaws, but as anti-heroes, not outright villains.

He was Joffrey's dog and he killed Mycah without a second thought, dumped the body in front of Ned and laughed at the exp<b></b>ression on his face when Ned realised what he had done. He is brutal, cynical, full of rage and barely suppressed violence.

Since Sandor has no POV, we don't know that with complete certainty. Laughing at and demeaning the victim is a common psychological response (coping mechanism) soldiers exhibit when ordered to kill people, especially noncombatants. There's a technical term for it, but I don't recall what it is. And, not that I'm excusing Sandor's slaughter of Mycah, but what we do know is that he shows profound remorse. And, yes, he is brutal, full of rage, and shields himself with violence, which Sansa astutely picks up on.

As for rescuing Arya at The Twins. She is his meal ticket and he "rescues" her to be able to take her to her aunt Lysa at the Eyrie or possibly the blackfish. It's the same reason he kidnapped her from the BWB in the first place: for a ransom not sentiment. He does actually hit her with the flat of his axe and knock her unconscious (way to go there, Sandor, that is some way to "protect" a ten year old girl).

I disagree. Even Arya realizes she has little value to him at this point. Lysa and Brynden have never seen Arya, so they would have no idea if she was really her (Sandor isn't stupid--he realizes her value has diminished). Also, Sandor could have handed her over to the Freys or any of the Stark enemies, but he doesn't. As far as hitting her with the axe, it was crude, but he did save her life (if he didn't knock her out, she would have struggled and every moment they stayed at the scene of the full-on massacre only increased the possibility of both their deaths. Hell, he even entertains the idea of going back for Catelyn at one point!). Also, Yoren whipped the shit out of her and she was smacked hard by one of Gregor's men, something I can't imagine Sandor doing to Arya even though he's a man who lives and thrives in a culture of violence.

He confesses the story of his scarring to Sansa when drunk then immediately threatens to kill her if she tells anyone. Does he mean it? Probably not. Do you think this is a gentle way to treat a 12 year old girl? I don't. He may protect her to some extent in KL but when he breaks during the battle of the Blackwater he goes to her room and extorts a song from her at knife point.

The poor girl is bloody terrified of him and with good reason. I would love every Sandor apologist to read that passage again with a clear mind and put yourself in Sansa's position. Romance? Gentle? Sandor basically a good guy? Tosh. There are men who murder women they profess to have feelings for and you very nearly saw that happen in horrific detail. He is an interesting character but don't misunderstand who and what he is: always on the edge of violence and deadly dangerous.

Sandor's behavior toward Sansa was despicable. He's crude and speaks with violent imagery because that's all he knows. But, as Lala and Le Cygne have pointed out, his actions are what really count. I don't believe he would harm Sansa or Arya, and they feel the same or else he wouldn't be the only person Sansa lets her guard down for and Arya wouldn't have continually pushed his buttons.

<snip>

I absolutely agree.

As a Sansa fan myself, I can rarely find places to discuss her future and plot without it turning into a SanSan discussion. Not just this forum, it's almost everywhere in "Sansa" fandom. It appears that somehow the most ardent Sansa fans are also SanSan fans, and it's impossible to debate Sansa's plot from an objective standpoint with them. When you call them out on it, they argue it's supported in the text so they're somehow excused in their interest.

I can't speak to other forums, but maybe the PtP threads would be more to your liking. While Sandor is discussed quite a bit, all aspects of Sansa's storyline are analyzed. For example, there's a great brother/sister comparison project going on right now, which I think is a unique and refreshing approach to analyzing Sansa's arc. As far as using text to excuse the relationship between Sansa and Sandor, I think "support" and "substantiate" are more appropriate terms. Speaking for myself, I feel no need to "excuse" my interest in the relationship between Sandor and Sansa and Sandor and Arya.

GRRM finds Dany & Drogo romantic and the text supports it, yet many sensible people know that it's a great example of Stockholm Syndrome. Now I hate Tyrion and Sansa pairing for many reasons, but Sansa finds Tyrion kind and doesn't specifically hold him responsible for her misery, but you'll see that in most marriage discussions it's Sansa(n) fans who vehemently argue to make Tyrion look as worse as possible (I don't think it's a wrong opinion to have, just pointing out what I've observed). So do you really find the text agreeable in every instance, really? Every instance? Well, there is support in the text that Sandor was abusive to Sansa and the fact that he has conflicting emotions about her doesn't change a damn thing. If you're gonna ship it, at least admit that it's a screwed up pairing and don't defend it.

GRRM considers Dany/Drogo a love story. Are you actually saying the author isn't sensible and doesn't understand his own characters and the stories he's created? Whether you like it or not, Daenerys found love with Drogo. She did not display any symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome.

Do I find the text agreeable in every instance? No, the rough way in which Sandor speaks to Sansa makes me uncomfortable and angry. But it's also what makes their story so fascinating. I don't just feel one emotion, but many emotions, often conflicting.

People love to pull out quotes of Sansa thinking of him positively and argue nothing is wrong with that, yeah of course. I wonder if your best friend was being physically abused by her husband and she didn't complain about that, in fact she told you she loved him, whether you'd support her view or try to get her divorced from the bastard. And if you say Sandor never beat Sansa, well yeah, he only came close to raping and killing her, that's all. But the fact that he cried afterwards negates all of that, I forgot. I care for Sansa as much as anyone could care for a fictional character, so when I see SanSan support over and over again bordering on fanaticism it bothers me. Again, it's the fanaticism that bothers me, not being interested in the relationship. It is extra amusing when I see the same people supporting this pairing are in every thread bashing other potential matches for Sansa.

This is a continuation of an ad hominem attack, and one that readers who are stereotyped as SanSans battle frequently. It's tiring.

Sandor went to Sansa's room to help her escape--he promised to keep her safe. When he feels rejected (at his lowest point when suffering from PTSD and racked with self-doubt), he behaves deplorably and the "SanSan" fans I believe you're referring to on this forum have not glossed over it, but have spent a great deal of time analyzing Sandor's behavior and state of mind, as well as Sansa's reaction and state of mind. It's insulting to accuse certain readers of cherry-pickng and glossing over text to make the relationship look like unicorns and rainbows. It's dysfunctional and problematic, to be sure, which, again, is why it's so fascinating. But I do not believe he ever had any intention of raping her. It completely contradicts his offer to help her and keep her safe.

I bet that that people who want them together don't want that to change at all, they want "his rage to be gentled" but if he came back as a Ned Stark 2.0 people would be dissapointed in him and want the old hound back.

I would certainly be disappointed if Sandor returned as Ned v2. That would make for a boring story, and I want an edgy, gritty story full of twists, turns, and moral greyness, which is why I love the Sansa/Sandor dynamic, as well as the series as a whole.

Understandably, Sandor is the only person Sansa can think of in this light because she started out the series as a child (11-year old) and her prince turned out to be a monster, and all of the people she could be attracted to (handsome, tall, gallant, honorable, chivalrous etc.) either turned out to be monsters, not interested in her, or she just didn't come upon that kind of person yet unfortunately. In her mind, again understandably, Sandor is the only person she could think of when it's shown that she's developing sexually. Doesn't make it a relationship to be true love or get fanatical about however.

Not necessarily. She could think of Loras (people often fantasize about others who may not reciprocate their feelings), and when she does, her thoughts drift to Sandor.

<snip>

Again, I agree.

<snip>

I agree with you, too. :)

The Hound is not some Disney Beauty and The Beast caricature with a scarred face but a noble character and a heart of gold.

I for one do not think of Sandor in this way, nor do the fans being stereotyped as SanSans. It's largely recognized that the relationship is deeply problematic and dysfunctional. Sandor, before the last stages of his mental breakdown, was not emotionally capable of being a healthy partner for any woman, especially Sansa who has her own emotional baggage to deal with. What is recognized it they both have feelings for each other. Sandor may be on a journey of profound transformation, but even if he does emerge emotionally stable with all propensity for violence fully curtailed, I do not see a happy ending for these two, only a tragic one. I think Sandor will play a crucial role in bringing the two Stark girls back together, and will sacrifice himself for Sansa. They may even have a brief fling, but no marriage and living happily ever after.

ETA: @Theda, yes to the Hound love! After all, he isn't some "savage beast" like Gregor. He actually has a moral compass (one he does struggle with, but it's there).

[a7neu]

As to why Arya resents the Hound... well, obviously he killed her friend on false accusations, he looks and talks nastily and like he doesn't give a shit about her, he's in league with the Queen and Joffrey, who killed her dad, her father never liked him and she may have picked up on that, etc.

I'm a big fan of SanSan but obviously not if the relationship is going to entail Sandor having an emotional breakdown every so often and putting a knife to Sansa's throat, while she sits there terrified and demure.

I do think Sandor's behavior in those scenes is incredibly bad news. When I first read them I found the knifepoint threats distasteful enough that I half wished someone would do Sandor in. No one should be in a relationship where they have to put up with threatening shit like that every so often. Nope nope nope.

I think most SanSaners believe there will be a behavioral change in at very least Sandor, but probably Sansa as well.

Personally, I distinguish between coldness and emotionally instability in Sandor.

Being cold and brutal is something that the world encourages in men to an extent, it's something that Sandor's specific upbringing and life experiences have required and it's probably something that he's worked on instilling in himself. Just like kids on farms have to get used to butchering animals, and most do. An example of just flat-out cold behavior would be killing Mycah. He works for the Queen, protecting the Crown Prince. The Crown Prince is attacked by some kid, this is a capital crime as per the royal family. His job is to do their bidding, it's a decent job and he's probably killed unfortunate 13 year old peasant types in battle before. He can't lose sleep over every person he kills or he'd never sleep. That's life in this world. He is, at his core, desensitized to this kind of thing, which improves his functionality as a warrior and IMO doesn't need to change.

People bring up Sandor laughing at Ned's reaction to demonstrate some particular perversion. In my view of things, Sandor's just done his duty and Ned comes along, and gives Sandor this horrified look and gets all dramatic/shocked/appalled/accusatory and says "YOU RODE HIM DOWN." And Sandor probably thinks: No shit, Neddard. This kid supposed attacked the Crown Prince and I work for the royal family.

Ned is the same guy who just destroyed his daughter's innocent and beloved pet wolf (who was deemed close enough to family that her body be returned North) because the royal family deemed it necessary, and the same guy who dutifully lopped the head off some poor scared elderly man who had obviously served the Wall for a good long time, all because he ran away (much lesser crime than attacking the royal family IMO). He said nothing when Theon laughed and kicked the man's head. Not that Sandor would know these specifics, but as he said, "don't tell me Lord Eddard of Winterfell never killed a man."

Of course Sandor laughs at Ned's ridiculously sheltered/pretentious reaction and gives him an equally obvious retort ("He ran. Not very fast."). What's he supposed to say? "Oh yeah, look at that, you're right Ned, I did ride him down, shame on me, I'm an awful person, please spurn me some more Ned". These are men in a hard world and they do their duties. Killing a teenage boy for attacking the Crown Prince is reasonable in this society. I don't think Sandor needs to feel remorse for Mycah, but he's immature and self-conscious and I wouldn't be surprised if the disdain from others got to him either.

What he does need to work on are the VERY unreasonable emotional instability issues. These would in include physically threatening/ terrorizing people (presumably to make him feel powerful), being mean to people he's fond of, failing to acknowledge when he is fond of someone, trying to talk himself into being more cruel than he needs/wants to be, pretending that because the world is horrible he has to be horrible too (in other words, ignoring his own agency). etc. Just in general, he needs to relax, gain some confidence and get a grip on his thoughts and feelings (i.e stop having the maturity of an 11 year old boy!!). He doesn't need to be turned off of battle or killing, or turn to pacifism, or be polite and sensitive, or develop a warm and gentle aura.

I doubt all of that will happen on the Quiet Isle. I think he's stuck on the Quiet Isle because he's crippled, broke and homeless. The Elder Brother hasn't talked to him since Sandor took the vow of silence, and when they were talking, Sandor was no doubt emotional and the Elder Brother overeager to find someone who would follow in his footsteps as a warrior-holy man convert.

I think he'll probably be a little humbled (from having priests spoonfeed him and wipe his ass) and maybe cleared his head a bit and thought about what he wants in life and where he wants to go next (someplace with a little more integrity than the Lannisters).

I think probably the most important part of the relationship is Sansa. I hope her upcoming experiences with Myranda, Littlefinger and maybe Harry the Heir (who sounds like a handful) will help her the gain confidence and assertiveness to tell Sandor right off if he acts up, which I think he would respect. You have to keep in mind that his life has been pretty much devoid of affection (even his parents betrayed him), and while at first he would snark, I think with some persistent TLC he'd come round and stay there. That said, if he keeps repeating the same mistakes... she'll need to give him the Ser Jorah treatment and mean it.

I can envision them really working well together if they both just grow up, and I can see him being very useful to Sansa, but Sansa deserves someone better than an abuser (even if only an occasional one), if that's all he can manage to be.

[direwienerdog]

He did kill her friend Mycah. And the huge, angry warrior with half his face burned off who's always roaring drunk is generally pretty scary anyway.

He only roaring drunk after quitting the Battle of the Blackwater. If you read the chapters he's mentioned he actually more of a social drinker. He is drunk and admits it when bring Sansa back to the keep after the Hands Tourney, but so is everyone in the pavilion including Septa Mordain, who is passed out at table. Even Sansa has had more wine than ever before and is very tipsy.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I don't think Le Cygne is trying to be condescending (not her style). She's just pointing out the subtext.

Well I felt the post, the first few lines in particular, had a didactic tone and I felt that was superfluous and uneven for the discussion between you and I. Quite frankly I did not want to read anything after "and then GRRM created subtext" which was the first comment. When I tried to look past these things and read the rest I found that while the points were well thought out, and I believe I even agreed with all of them, none of the points showed any relevance to the discussion you and I were having or to the part of my post that was quoted, so I did not see the need to comment on this, but maybe had Le Cygne taken the time to read my previous posts and try to understand the context then all of this could have been avoided, or maybe I could have been a little more clear so there would have been no misunderstandings.

Being cold and brutal is something that the world encourages in men to an extent, it's something that Sandor's specific upbringing and life experiences have required and it's probably something that he's worked on instilling in himself. Just like kids on farms have to get used to butchering animals, and most do. An example of just flat-out cold behavior would be killing Mycah. He works for the Queen, protecting the Crown Prince. The Crown Prince is attacked by some kid, this is a capital crime as per the royal family. His job is to do their bidding, it's a decent job and he's probably killed unfortunate 13 year old peasant types in battle before. He can't lose sleep over every person he kills or he'd never sleep. That's life in this world. He is, at his core, desensitized to this kind of thing, which improves his functionality as a warrior and IMO doesn't need to change.

People bring up Sandor laughing at Ned's reaction to demonstrate some particular perversion. In my view of things, Sandor's just done his duty and Ned comes along, and gives Sandor this horrified look and gets all dramatic/shocked/appalled/accusatory and says "YOU RODE HIM DOWN." And Sandor probably thinks: No shit, Neddard. This kid supposed attacked the Crown Prince and I work for the royal family.

Ned is the same guy who just destroyed his daughter's innocent and beloved pet wolf (who was deemed close enough to family that her body be returned North) because the royal family deemed it necessary, and the same guy who dutifully lopped the head off some poor scared elderly man who had obviously served the Wall for a good long time, all because he ran away (much lesser crime than attacking the royal family IMO). He said nothing when Theon laughed and kicked the man's head. Not that Sandor would know these specifics, but as he said, "don't tell me Lord Eddard of Winterfell never killed a man."

Of course Sandor laughs at Ned's ridiculously sheltered/pretentious reaction and gives him an equally obvious retort ("He ran. Not very fast."). What's he supposed to say? "Oh yeah, look at that, you're right Ned, I did ride him down, shame on me, I'm an awful person, please spurn me some more Ned". These are men in a hard world and they do their duties. Killing a teenage boy for attacking the Crown Prince is reasonable in this society. I don't think Sandor needs to feel remorse for Mycah, but he's immature and self-conscious and I wouldn't be surprised if the disdain from others got to him either.

Small quibble here with the parts I've bolded. Death is not the penalty for attacking the royals, the old penalty for striking one of the blood royal is losing the offending hand but it's not used anymore. However death is the known and currently used penalty for deserting the Night's Watch. Which being sent to the NW is probably the punishment Mycah should have faced if he were ever given a trial and at worst if proven guilty they could have used the old punishment of maiming but it's in the text that King Robert thought that was a mad and cruel punishment for Arya. Also it was brought up at Tyrion's trial for regicide that he struck Joffery, once as the Crowned Prince and once as the King, in front of witnesses and King's Guard and Tyrion received absolutely no punishment and the Red Viper was shocked. So I can see why Ned was shocked if we go by what is reasonable in their society.

[direwienerdog]

I'm no swordsman, but I think it would be nearly impossible for Sandor to strike with his signature move--cleaving someone from shoulder to breastbone--if that person was laying down dead. Mycah had to be standing. Also, I don't think Sandor was alone since he was with a search party, so there would be witnesses.

You can't say The Hound is just a cold blooded killer.

He's way too complex than that. Yah he serves as Joff's bodyguard and cuts Mycah

In half. He gives the lame excuse that he ran away, but I would guess Joff didn't want even a commoner around to tell how he got owned by a skinny 8 year old girl.

He protect Arya even after the prospects of getting rewarded are greatly diminished by the RW.Even though he's rough with Arya, be never strikes her after all the times she attempts to do him harm. He does ding her with the flat of his sword so she doesn't commit suicide at the Twins.Arya after a time even cares for him when his injuries are becoming septic. She is almost talked into giving him " a mercy

Killing" but descides to let him die die and rides of.

[Lala]

Moreover, these thoughts appear to be her way of expressing agency. She's being paired up with men, over and over again, and is increasingly resisting these pairings in her thoughts, while reflecting on what she wants.

Sandor tells her to speak up, and she does, with him. And often it's not what he wants to hear, but it's what he needs to hear. And she's the one telling him. And he listens to her. Nobody listens to Sansa, but he does.

Agreed!

The Hound is not some Disney Beauty and The Beast caricature with a scarred face but a noble character and a heart of gold. He is a savage beast who cut Mycah in half and laughed in Ned's face when he flung his corpse at his feet. His repressed lust for Sansa is a danger to her not a shield. He may have been the only thing protecting her in KL (Tyrell manipulation, Dontos' false rescue, Tyrion's "cloak of protection") but that just shows how bad a place she was in, not how good a champion he is. In the Vale she has no one and thinks of him but what does this mean? That a protector who, however flawed, at least cared nothing for her claim to Winterfell or in using her as a pawn in power politics is better than LF / Lysa's plans? Sure. That he is her true shield and the only one she can rely on? Gah, no. :ack: Desperate is as desperate does.

I would actually argue that in many ways, Beast from B&B is actually a PG-rated version of The Hound. If you recall the Disney movie, Beast initially behaves in a very frightening and aggressive manner to both Beauty's father and Beauty herself. Although his actual actions do not reflect his behavior - he treats Beauty as an honored guest - the behavior is still initially frightening to both Beauty and her father. It is only after Beauty convinces herself to look over the facade of "beastliness" he hides behind and at the urging of his talking furniture that he begins to "gentle his rage" and behave in a way that reflects his true heart.

Both the Beast and Sandor hide behind their "beast" masks because they are afraid of rejection. Their outer appearances and identity have already denied them any pretense of chivalry and gentle manners - no matter how they act, people are always initially terrified of their appearances - and their past experiences have disillusioned them about the society around them - in order to avoid rejection, they act in a way that implies that they do not care about the love and approval of others. It's a classic defense mechanism: if I do not care, then you can't hurt me with your rejection and fear.

Sansa stresses that part of him. Sansa doesn't see him as a threat. She sees him in quite the opposite way, as someone who protects her.

~snip~

Again, it's about what she wants. It's her story. When she prayed for him, she said gentle the rage, not turn him into a different person. She seems to like him the way he is.

~snip~

In each case, I think my answer would be is, it's her story. All the reader can do is like the story or not. I think it's a good story and it's told well.

Well put! I agree - it's so important to remember that it's Sansa's story, not the reader's, and it's important to remember what she wants and feels.

IDo I find the text agreeable in every instance? No, the rough way in which Sandor speaks to Sansa makes me uncomfortable and angry. But it's also what makes their story so fascinating. I don't just feel one emotion, but many emotions, often conflicting.

~snip~

I for one do not think of Sandor in this way, nor do the fans being stereotyped as SanSans. It's largely recognized that the relationship is deeply problematic and dysfunctional. Sandor, before the last stages of his mental breakdown, was not emotionally capable of being a healthy partner for any woman, especially Sansa who has her own emotional baggage to deal with. What is recognized it they both have feelings for each other. Sandor may be on a journey of profound transformation, but even if he does emerge emotionally stable with all propensity for violence fully curtailed, I do not see a happy ending for these two, only a tragic one. I think Sandor will play a crucial role in bringing the two Stark girls back together, and will sacrifice himself for Sansa. They may even have a brief fling, but no marriage and living happily ever after.

ETA: @Theda, yes to the Hound love! After all, he isn't some "savage beast" like Gregor. He actually has a moral compass (one he does struggle with, but it's there).

Agree with everything you wrote! And it's always amusing to me when I'm characterized as a SanSan fan because I'm not. When I first read the PtP threads, my initial reaction was "ugh Sandor? That ugly dude with the scar and the attitude problem?" It was only after rereading AGoT and ACoK that I realized how substantiated the relationship is by the text and how easy it is to misinterpret Sandor's characters without noticing the tiny details (like his fight with his brother at the Hand's tourney - despite his stated wish to kill his brother and the fact that Gregor is deliberately slashing at his (helmed) face, Sandor consciously refuses to aim blows at his brother's unprotected head). And completely agree that it is the complexity of SanSan's relationship that makes it fascinating - just like Drogo/Dany (does GRRM have a thing for matching couple names?) the relationship grows and transforms as the characters themselves (especially the women, since we view the relationship from their POVs) grow and transform. None of us are arguing that it will be a successful relationship, simply that the relationship is there and is a complex and meaningful one - to explain it away as an abusive relationship or one rooted in Stockholm Syndrome, is to willingly explain away most of what happens between the two characters.

Personally, I distinguish between coldness and emotionally instability in Sandor.

Being cold and brutal is something that the world encourages in men to an extent, it's something that Sandor's specific upbringing and life experiences have required and it's probably something that he's worked on instilling in himself. Just like kids on farms have to get used to butchering animals, and most do. An example of just flat-out cold behavior would be killing Mycah. He works for the Queen, protecting the Crown Prince. The Crown Prince is attacked by some kid, this is a capital crime as per the royal family. His job is to do their bidding, it's a decent job and he's probably killed unfortunate 13 year old peasant types in battle before. He can't lose sleep over every person he kills or he'd never sleep. That's life in this world. He is, at his core, desensitized to this kind of thing, which improves his functionality as a warrior and IMO doesn't need to change.

People bring up Sandor laughing at Ned's reaction to demonstrate some particular perversion. In my view of things, Sandor's just done his duty and Ned comes along, and gives Sandor this horrified look and gets all dramatic/shocked/appalled/accusatory and says "YOU RODE HIM DOWN." And Sandor probably thinks: No shit, Neddard. This kid supposed attacked the Crown Prince and I work for the royal family.

Ned is the same guy who just destroyed his daughter's innocent and beloved pet wolf (who was deemed close enough to family that her body be returned North) because the royal family deemed it necessary, and the same guy who dutifully lopped the head off some poor scared elderly man who had obviously served the Wall for a good long time, all because he ran away (much lesser crime than attacking the royal family IMO). He said nothing when Theon laughed and kicked the man's head. Not that Sandor would know these specifics, but as he said, "don't tell me Lord Eddard of Winterfell never killed a man."

Of course Sandor laughs at Ned's ridiculously sheltered/pretentious reaction and gives him an equally obvious retort ("He ran. Not very fast."). What's he supposed to say? "Oh yeah, look at that, you're right Ned, I did ride him down, shame on me, I'm an awful person, please spurn me some more Ned". These are men in a hard world and they do their duties. Killing a teenage boy for attacking the Crown Prince is reasonable in this society. I don't think Sandor needs to feel remorse for Mycah, but he's immature and self-conscious and I wouldn't be surprised if the disdain from others got to him either.

What he does need to work on are the VERY unreasonable emotional instability issues. These would in include physically threatening/ terrorizing people (presumably to make him feel powerful), being mean to people he's fond of, failing to acknowledge when he is fond of someone, trying to talk himself into being more cruel than he needs/wants to be, pretending that because the world is horrible he has to be horrible too (in other words, ignoring his own agency). etc. Just in general, he needs to relax, gain some confidence and get a grip on his thoughts and feelings (i.e stop having the maturity of an 11 year old boy!!). He doesn't need to be turned off of battle or killing, or turn to pacifism, or be polite and sensitive, or develop a warm and gentle aura.

I doubt all of that will happen on the Quiet Isle. I think he's stuck on the Quiet Isle because he's crippled, broke and homeless. The Elder Brother hasn't talked to him since Sandor took the vow of silence, and when they were talking, Sandor was no doubt emotional and the Elder Brother overeager to find someone who would follow in his footsteps as a warrior-holy man convert.

I think he'll probably be a little humbled (from having priests spoonfeed him and wipe his ass) and maybe cleared his head a bit and thought about what he wants in life and where he wants to go next (someplace with a little more integrity than the Lannisters).

I think probably the most important part of the relationship is Sansa. I hope her upcoming experiences with Myranda, Littlefinger and maybe Harry the Heir (who sounds like a handful) will help her the gain confidence and assertiveness to tell Sandor right off if he acts up, which I think he would respect. You have to keep in mind that his life has been pretty much devoid of affection (even his parents betrayed him), and while at first he would snark, I think with some persistent TLC he'd come round and stay there. That said, if he keeps repeating the same mistakes... she'll need to give him the Ser Jorah treatment and mean it.

I can envision them really working well together if they both just grow up, and I can see him being very useful to Sansa, but Sansa deserves someone better than an abuser (even if only an occasional one), if that's all he can manage to be.

I love everything you wrote in this post (so much so I couldn't bring myself to snip it!) The bolded parts are definitely important, and very well-put, and I love the distinction you made between Sandor's coldness and his emotional instability. Your analysis of Sandor and Ned's interaction over the death of Mycah is also very well thought out and insightful - I think, in a sense, Sandor initially sees Ned as representing everything he hates about the society they live in - hypocritical conceptions of chivalry and honor based on a form of meaningless legality. If the two characters had interacted more meaningfully at KL, it would have been interesting to see if Sandor's perceptions of Ned changed - I like to think so, he may still have thought Ned was a fool, but he would have come to begrudgingly respect him.

[Le Cygne]

I would certainly be disappointed if Sandor returned as Ned v2. That would make for a boring story, and I want an edgy, gritty story full of twists, turns, and moral greyness, which is why I love the Sansa/Sandor dynamic, as well as the series as a whole.

I like everything but wanted to add my thoughts to this.

These are all wonderfully messed up characters living in a gritty, edgy, and sexy fantasy world, what's not to like.

Sansa grew up with her brothers practicing how to kill people in the yard, and then, even her sister.

Dunk, the virtuous "true knight", sings a song about stealing a sweet kiss with a blade, and pulls his "dagger" on the woman he yanks closer for a kiss.

Dany rides a dragon!

Sandor doesn't bother me at all, I think he's a great character. He's got issues, but they all do. I don't think he'd ever hurt a hair on her head, and I think Sansa knows it.

And I think she stood up to him just fine, I actually think they both liked that.

I for one do not think of Sandor in this way, nor do the fans being stereotyped as SanSans.

I don't want to be called a fan of this or that, I pretty much like the whole series. Also I find that's done to marginalize people. Romance isn't a dirty word.

Sansa/Sandor gets talked about more than any other because so many readers like it. It's a wonderful story, I think.

I would actually argue that in many ways, Beast from B&B is actually a PG-rated version of The Hound.

I meant to say this too, but was too sleepy. Watching that, it totally reminds me of Sansa and the Hound. I'm actually a fan of some of the good Disney movies, there's more than meets the eye.

[ARYa_Nym]

Hmm. I thought this thread was something else.

Arya and Sansa do not have the same relationship dynamic with Sandor.

Sandor kills the only person from her old life that she names as her friend. Ned specifically told Arya to hate him. Sandor is Arya's captor. He is not Sansa's.

Why should a little girl like her captor? That's not healthy.

As for taking him off her list she put him back on in the same page. That gets ignored.

Sandor was also emotionally and verbally abusive towards her. Abuse has other forms than physical.

[Trident full of Dogs]

I generally don't like people that say things like "I should've fucked her bloody," especially when talking to "her" little sister.

He's an all-around despicable person, his one redeeming quality being almost-sorta-but-hardly nice to Sansa, saving her, but even that's ruined when he threatens to kill her and rape her.

He is not despicable, he is troubled, full of anget and feels miserable, probably because he had a terrible job and everybody feared him; and he's only been trained to kill. He has no hope of ever finding a woman to love him because he THINKS he is despicable (and knows he is ugly as hell too). He has a good heart I think. He's a good guy who's been trained since childhood to be a horrible person but he doesn't want to be bad!

[Squire Dalbridge]

Because he is rude, cruel and violent. He has never said a kind word to anyone. And big, ugly and noisy drunk as well. And they are little girls. Why it is so hard to understand?

[Mad Monkey]

He is not despicable, he is troubled, full of anget and feels miserable, probably because he had a terrible job and everybody feared him; and he's only been trained to kill. He has no hope of ever finding a woman to love him because he THINKS he is despicable (and knows he is ugly as hell too). He has a good heart I think. He's a good guy who's been trained since childhood to be a horrible person but he doesn't want to be bad!

All of this might be true in Sandor's heart, but there is no way that Arya or Sansa could possibly see it that way right away. From Arya's perspective, Sandor is pretty despicable. He butchered her friend, and while he may have had a reason that's hardly an excuse, any more than Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne had an excuse for killing Eddard in her eyes. Arya definitely looks on Sandor Clegane with more favor than those two but only because he's not 100% evil, not because she thinks that he is a "good guy" or knows anything about his childhood.

Sansa has somewhat more insight into Clegane than Arya does because i believe she does know about Gregor's abuse and of course she views him more favorably because he is one of the few people in KL who treat her kindly on occasion. But as Stannis would say, that doesn't blot out the bad things that he has done as well; Sandor clearly relishes intimidating and terrorizing other people and goes out of his way to be as off-putting as possible. If that really is just a front, I can't blame Sansa or Arya for not seeing clearly through the fronting perfectly because they are just children and it is a very convincing front.

[a7neu]

Small quibble here with the parts I've bolded. Death is not the penalty for attacking the royals, the old penalty for striking one of the blood royal is losing the offending hand but it's not used anymore. However death is the known and currently used penalty for deserting the Night's Watch. Which being sent to the NW is probably the punishment Mycah should have faced if he were ever given a trial and at worst if proven guilty they could have used the old punishment of maiming but it's in the text that King Robert thought that was a mad and cruel punishment for Arya. Also it was brought up at Tyrion's trial for regicide that he struck Joffery, once as the Crowned Prince and once as the King, in front of witnesses and King's Guard and Tyrion received absolutely no punishment and the Red Viper was shocked. So I can see why Ned was shocked if we go by what is reasonable in their society.

Robert says "what would you have me do, whip her through the streets?" which I thought was just a general punishment. I don't remember the part where he mentions amputation. amputation sounds like a lenient punishment for a peasant attacking the Crown Prince with a weapon.

However I think I have to rescind my Ned-Sandor musings anyways because I forgot that Sandor provokes Ned... saying "the day was not wasted, we got her pet" and dumping the body off in front of him. Unless he just wanted to get Ned's reaction out of the way, it seems he was just being a jerk-off.

[Minsc]

However I think I have to rescind my Ned-Sandor musings anyways because I forgot that Sandor provokes Ned... saying "the day was not wasted, we got her pet" and dumping the body off in front of him. Unless he just wanted to get Ned's reaction out of the way, it seems he was just being a jerk-off.

I think it is likely that Sandor doesn't like Ned in how he sees Ned as being no different then knights, in how he speaks highly about honor yet in the end Ned is also just a killer for his lord/king.

[Light a wight tonight]

Because he is rude, cruel and violent. He has never said a kind word to anyone. And big, ugly and noisy drunk as well. And they are little girls. Why it is so hard to understand?

Actually we only see him drunk after the Blackwater battle, where he suffers a breakdown due to his flame phobia. Prior to that he drinks no more than many characters. Big and ugly are beyond his control. Rude and violent, no question. Cruel? Depends on your definition. Does he go out of his way to cause suffering?

[DogLover]

You can't say The Hound is just a cold blooded killer.

He's way too complex than that. Yah he serves as Joff's bodyguard and cuts Mycah

In half. He gives the lame excuse that he ran away, but I would guess Joff didn't want even a commoner around to tell how he got owned by a skinny 8 year old girl.

He protect Arya even after the prospects of getting rewarded are greatly diminished by the RW.Even though he's rough with Arya, be never strikes her after all the times she attempts to do him harm. He does ding her with the flat of his sword so she doesn't commit suicide at the Twins.Arya after a time even cares for him when his injuries are becoming septic. She is almost talked into giving him " a mercy

Killing" but descides to let him die die and rides of.

Where do I say this? Did you read any of my other posts?

[KhalFrodo]

He was kind of a drunken douchebag with brother issues. He had redeeming qualities, but still a douchebag.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Robert says "what would you have me do, whip her through the streets?" which I thought was just a general punishment. I don't remember the part where he mentions amputation. amputation sounds like a lenient punishment for a peasant attacking the Crown Prince with a weapon.

Well there is a good reason you don't remember Robert mentioning this because it's in a memory from Jaime. Also there is precedent for amputation being the punishment for striking a prince in The Hedge Knight from the mouths of Targaryens. (I'm not sure if you have read any of the Tales of Dunk and Egg yet so I'll put the quote in a spoiler box because it's a pretty big spoiler for the first book, beware)

This is the attack of a commoner on a prince

Three long strides, then Dunk grabbed the prince’s shoulder and wrenched him around hard. His sword and dagger were forgotten, along with everything the old man had ever taught him. His fist knocked Aerion off his feet, and the toe of his boot slammed into the prince’s belly. When Aerion went for his knife, Dunk stepped on his wrist and then kicked him again, right in the mouth. He might have kicked him to death right then and there, but the princeling’s men swarmed over him.

This is the Targaryens decree

The last time a man was found guilty of striking one of royal blood, it was decreed that he should lose the offending hand.”

“My hand?” said Dunk, aghast.

“And your foot. You kicked him too, did you not?”

And Dunk, the commoner, did not lose his hand or foot because he was also allowed to chose trial by combat.

Anyway here's the quote from Jaime and it seems at this time Cersei knew Arya struck Joffery and wanted her punished and Robert had to fight with her probably for the full four days over it.

“Do you see that window, ser?” Jaime used a sword to point. “That was Raymun Darry’s bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night... well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword... but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...”

Also here is the quote from Tyrion's trial

Ser Balon spoke reluctantly of how he had pulled Tyrion away from Joffrey on the day of the riot. "He did strike His Grace, that's so. It was a fit of wroth, no more. A summer storm. The mob near killed us all."

"In the days of the Targaryens, a man who struck one of the blood royal would lose the hand he struck him with," observed the Red Viper of Dome. "Did the dwarf regrow his little hand, or did you White Swords forget your duty?"

[a7neu]

And I think she stood up to him just fine, I actually think they both liked that.

How so? She does touch his face, which I agree they enjoyed and helped him, but it was a gesture of kindness as well as reassurance that she believes there's good in him. She never asks why he feels the need to threaten her, a defenseless girl, she never tells him "I don't care how upset or insecure you are, it's not OK to threaten me," which is what he needs to understand if they are to be together. The BBW bedroom scene is the second time he's threatened her life like that (third, if you count the verbal threat). He gets off on intimidating and threatening her and he knows he can get away with it with Sansa, which is utter horseshit IMO. The only time I recall her confronting him being a petty little jerk is when she asks him why he's so hateful after he throws in the bit about her father's body spasming after decapitation. And what does he do? He ignores her question and instead uses it as an opportunity to give an angsty exposition on false knighthood and killing. And she lets him get away with it!!! Later she says he's awful and he just says "I'm honest, it's the world that's awful (which I'd guess to be his justification for all the mean things he does). She should have challenged his deflection and bizarre logic and pushed him for a relevant answer, but she was too put-off and cowed by him to do so.

@ Elaena

Thanks! I'd totally forgotten that bit and I haven't read Dunk & Egg yet. Part of me still thinks that Ned should've been a little more prepared for it, but I'll give him slack :P

[Squire Dalbridge]

Actually we only see him drunk after the Blackwater battle, where he suffers a breakdown due to his flame phobia. Prior to that he drinks no more than many characters. Big and ugly are beyond his control. Rude and violent, no question. Cruel? Depends on your definition. Does he go out of his way to cause suffering?

The point was answering the question, why the girls don't like him. Not to state that he IS a bad person, no.

Arya mentions her drunken smell a couple of times. And surely You admit he is at least a bit cruel, don't You? That must be one of the reasons darling Joff was so 'fond of him', like sweet Cersei stated.

I believe in his good heart, though, even if by this far only Sansa has managed in seeing a glimpse of it.