Why women are more hated?

[KingInTheCave]

Virgin shaming is worse than slut shaming people. Men are shamed for their default state. Women are shamed for a choice. Think about that people.

I just thought about it and it's absurd. In fact I regret thinking about.

[Light a wight tonight]

... Did you even read my post? To repeat myself, I said disliking Sansa for how she acted in AGOT is a rational reason to dislike her. I love Sansa now but I still cringe at how she behaved in the first book. On the other hand, bashing her for being feminine or not desiring Tyrion even though he was kind to her a few times DOES have sexist undertones.

I'm 100% in agreement on GoT Sansa. She was written as a ditz on purpose. Her progression is probably too subtle for some readers. Not desiring Tyrion is pretty normal. He's ugly in the extreme and he's of the family that killed her father and has been tormenting her.

[Lord Warhammer]

Sansa is evil.

Dany is selfish and arrogant.

Cat is traitor and fool.

Cersei beyond evil.

Margaery and Asha not bad, i choose those.

Sansa my friend is not evil. Stupid maybe(?) But not evil

[Light a wight tonight]

And look, I like Oberyn and Arianne the same, if Oberyn a bit more because I like Elia Martell more than those two.

Please excuse my question, but I'm puzzled. Elia isn't so much a character as a memory. She died long before the first book. We know next to nothing about her. Can you enlighten me as to why you like her?

[aquintus]

See this is where my concern is regarding sexism in the fandom.

Just because people aren't making misogynistic comments about characters like Catelyn does not mean that misogyny doesn't factor into how she is perceived.

This is like saying that all of the people that say bad things about Tyrion (especially in the Sansa threads) obviously just hate little people.

That's why it's important to judge each individual argument on its own merits, and not on-size-fits-all generalizations about sexism/racism/bigotry. If the argument against a certain character (regardless of gender) is not inherently misogynistic/misandrist (ex: Dany is a bad person for ordering the torture of the wine seller's daughters) then misogyny/misandry is not a factor. If you still perceive it to be a factor, then that's on you and your own sexism/biases.

[Florina Laufeyson]

This is like saying that all of the people that say bad things about Tyrion (especially in the Sansa threads) obviously just hate little people.

That's why it's important to judge each individual argument on its own merits, and not on-size-fits-all generalizations about sexism/racism/bigotry. If the argument against a certain character (regardless of gender) is not inherently misogynistic/misandrist (ex: Dany is a bad person for ordering the torture of the wine seller's daughters) then misogyny/misandry is not a factor. If you still perceive it to be a factor, then that's on you and your own sexism/biases.

:thumbsup: Indeed!

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

It's amazing how little this thread has progressed while I was away.

For the 100th time

Not everybody who dislikes a particular female character is sexist.

Not all criticism of a female character is sexist.

Some criticisms of female characters take on a sexist tone. Calling out sexist does not invalidate the two above points.

Noticing sexism against women is not misandry.

Making sexist comments doesn't prove that sexism doesn't exist. You'd think that one would be honest, but some have grasped it.

Once again. It is a minority of posters that make sexist comments. Nobody suggested that everybody on this forum is sexist. Nobody suggested that all the men on this forum are sexist. If you are one of the people that frequently get accused of being sexist. It's probably because you have been making sexist comments. I have yet to see anybody accused of sexism for a criticism that is not actually sexist.

Apparently, for some people there is some sort of MRA filter that snaps into place whenever the words sexism or misogyny appear that reduces reading comprehension skills. Not one person on this thread has accused all men of being sexist or claimed that there is no legitimate criticism to me made of female characters.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Let me rephrase that, Raegal's point is that men who have sex are told they are awesome and women are slut shamed.

did anyone said asha is a slut? Nope, cause she is just a well written character and we like her.

[Father of Hosts]

Snip

We get it. Sexism exists. Nobody is saying it doesn't. That's why people are making jokes. Because the whole point of the thread seemed to be a PSA that sexism exists, which is a fairly obvious thing to make a thread about.

[Leif]

I don't care what a character's gender is; a PoS is a PoS.

[I know I know]

A study found that angry female faces look less feminine.

Rockville, MD – “Why is it that men can be bastards and women must wear pearls and smile?” wrote author Lynn Hecht Schafran. The answer, according to an article in the

Journal of Vision

, may lie in our interpretation of facial exp

ressions.

In two studies, researchers asked subjects to identify the sex of a series of faces. In the first study, androgynous faces with lowered eyebrows and tight lips (angry exp

ressions) were more likely to be identified as male, and faces with smiles and raised eyebrows (exp

ressions of happiness and fear) were often labeled feminine.

The second study used male and female faces wearing exp

ressions of happiness, anger, sadness, fear or a neutral exp

ression. Overall, subjects were able to identify male faces more quickly than female faces, and female faces that expressed anger took the longest to identify.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

We get it. Sexism exists. Nobody is saying it doesn't. That's why people are making jokes. Because the whole point of the thread seemed to be a PSA that sexism exists, which is a fairly obvious thing to make a thread about.

Then why have so many people made the argument that none of the criticisms of female characters could possibly be sexist?

This thread wouldn't have reached 21 pages if everybody thought that it was obvious.

[Newstar]

I've been thinking about the comments in this thread about hated characters, male and female. There seems to be a cluster of traits that seem to mark a character as likeable, as far as I can tell:

1. Underdog: Are they a perfect physical prototype who's high-status and has led a charmed life, or are they ugly/disabled/overlooked/lower status, discriminated against/overlooked/mocked/bullied/cast aside/scorned/dismissed as a result and have had to fight and struggle for everything (respect, power, survival, etc.) in the face of others' mistreatment/abuse/harassment/opposition?

2. Competence/Judgment: Are they exceptionally skilled in some respect? Do they know what they're doing, or do they just blunder from one disaster to the next? Do they make good decisions?

3. Intelligence: Are they of above-average intelligence?

4. Wit: Do they get all the good lines? Is their dialogue memorable, with tons of great barbs or with awesome speeches, or is it unmemorable? Are they eloquent?

5. Charisma: Do they have flash, swagger, panache, confidence, presence, whatever you want to call it, so that they're compelling and interesting no matter what they're doing? Or are they morose, dull, stolid, and flat?

6. Loyalty: Are they loyal even when it costs them something to be loyal, or are they opportunists looking for the best deal they can get?

7. Disinterested Kindness: Have they shown themselves to be kind to others when there's no benefit in it for them (and their kindness isn't born of romantic attraction)? More importantly, have they shown themselves to be kind to others when the act of kindness represents a great risk for them or goes against their interests or even their personal safety?

8: Loved/Admired/Respected/Befriended by Other Likable Characters: Do they have the love/admiration/friendship/respect/loyalty of other likable characters? (Love, etc. born of sexual attraction or infatuation doesn't count, obviously.)

The funny thing about these traits is that except for #7, they have nothing to do with how good or bad the characters are (and even villains are capable of disinterested kindness on occasion: Jaime being nice to Pia, Sandor trying to comfort Arya, etc.) In fact, there are "good" characters who don't possess any of these traits, and there are "bad" characters who possess quite a few (Littlefinger loses out on the last three, obviously, but he hits quite a few of the others). So you can have villains, rapists, murderers, etc. who are actually quite likable. It also explains why Willas Tyrell seems to be such a popular character, despite never actually having shown up in the books, since he hits #1, #3, #7, and #8.

The list also explains why Tyrion was so popular at the end of AGOT: he hits every one of these traits in AGOT: befriending Jon helps him hit #7 and #8. He's certainly not the nicest guy in AGOT, or even a nice guy in AGOT at all, really, but the most likable for a lot of people? I think so. As the books progress, he checks fewer and fewer items on the list, and thus he becomes much less likable. And yeah, he's doing X, Y, and Z awful things in the intervening books, but he never was the nicest person in AGOT, and he was superpopular anyway. It's not that he's that much more awful in ADWD, it's that he's no longer entertaining about it.

And it also explains why Sansa was so unpopular at the end of AGOT. If you take a character who starts off as fitting every mold perfectly and as having led a charmed life full of others' praise, who makes horrible decisions, who is not particularly intelligent, who is not witty, who is not charismatic, who appears to show disloyalty to her family on two occasions (with disastrous consequences), and who isn't liked by any likable characters who don't want to bang her, you have...well, you have Sansa in AGOT. (The "kindness" category is a bit of a mixed bag; Sansa is kind to the Hound and goes to bat for Jeyne Poole and for Ned, but she's also needlessly nasty to Arya at points, so it's a wash, really.) Small wonder she was so hated after AGOT, although once she became an outcast and a traitor's daughter (#1) and her compassion and kindness came to the fore, her stock began to rise.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression, though, and Sansa's first impression stuck for a lot of people, just as Tyrion's first impression in AGOT stuck for a lot of people. I think Tyrion could be slitting babies' throats in TWOW and he would still be viewed by fans as the amusing little fellow in AGOT who cracked jokes and palled around with Jon Snow.

That's why Dany gets pilloried as of ADWD, I think. It's not so much her promiscuity or her gender, but her incompetence (#2) that seems to rankle most. If she was Daario left, right and centre and giving Quentyn the finger but was also rocking the Meereen governance and getting her dragons under control, would anyone care? No one seems to hold Asha's preference for gorgeous Qarl over Tristifer Botley against her.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

as I said sexism exist. But it is in both ways.

For example, as the witch said, dany knew deep inside that her baby was the sacrifice in drogos spell.... but she is no baby killer because of her woman nature: She is doing this for love.

When stannis doubts about burning edric, to cast a spell for the sake of the kingdom he becames a cold baby mourderer. see?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

A study found that angry female faces look less feminine.

Interesting. Not surprising. I have natural bitchy resting face and strangers on the street tell me to smile. It's creepy. Once the phrase bitchy resting face took off, I learned I'm not alone. Once, I was walking and talking on the phone with my mother who had informed me that my grandfather had just died. A man walking by me told me to smile. It was outrageous.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This thread is closed for length and for the disrespectful way several posters took the conversation.

Do not start another.

[/MOD]