The Stone Beast Breathing Shadow Fire

[Dagon]

I've been thining that the beast and shadow fire are JonCon arriving and spreading the plague. Griffins are beasts and he's literally turning to stone. This would also leave Dany free to slay the lie that Aegon is a Targ and not a Blackfyre (shadow fire).

Why do people think Aegon isn't really a Targ?

[Ygrain]

Yep, I've seen (and am generally open to) the idea that it has something to do with Shireen, a Targaryen descendant also afflicted with greyscale. The main catch there is that I have trouble pinning down the "lie" at work here.

Good call, Apple Martini. I hadn't considered that JonCon being the stone beast and the shadow fire would make the Mummer's Dragon redundant. Kind of a duh, moment for me there. In theory, this could still be a point towards JonCon and be only the Greyscale, but its not as elegant as it could be, and there's no inherent lie to the Grey Plague idea.

There could be a lie in the misconception that greyscale is less harmful in children or that Shireen's condition is not fatal or harmful to others, especially if the misconception originated as an intentional lie from the Citadel or elsewhere.

Dany would know and use the word dragon.

She knows roses, as well, yet uses "flower", so this argument cannot really be used.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why do people think Aegon isn't really a Targ?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86425-how-is-faegon-a-blackfyre/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96986-how-many-of-you-came-up-with-a-fake-aegon-theory-before-seeing-it-here/

Those will get you started.

[JungWheats]

I don't think that Sarella is big enough to deserve a vision on different continent...

But as for the WolfDragon hybrid, I think there'd be more of an indication that we are seeing a WolfDragon. Like when Mel sees Bran and Bloodraven, she sees a boy with a wolf-face. Thats definitely a vision producing a hybrid creature in an attempt to communicate a concept: that Bran is both a boy and a wolf.

Dany knows what dragons look like, and she's seen dogs, leading me to believe she has some idea what a wolf looks like. The whole point of the beast vision is that she cannot describe it. Its just some monster, that for all intents and purposes, she has no likeness for, there is no description of the creature. If it was part dragon in anyway, I feel like Dany's brain would say that it was "scaly" or had claws and talons. There would be something that would indicate that it was somewhat familiar to her...It was like a dragon, but wasn't like one also. We even know that it breathed "shadow fire;" yet Dany never connects it to the likeness of a dragon at all.

[Dagon]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86425-how-is-faegon-a-blackfyre/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96986-how-many-of-you-came-up-with-a-fake-aegon-theory-before-seeing-it-here/

Those will get you started.

Thanks!

EDIT: Really interesting. Though does it really matter if he's a Blackfyre if they're an offshoot of the Targaryen's? They still have the claim to the throne. If anything it may give him and Dany enough genetic diversity to have normal children (If Dany was able.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think that Sarella is big enough to deserve a vision on different continent...

But as for the WolfDragon hybrid, I think there'd be more of an indication that we are seeing a WolfDragon. Like when Mel sees Bran and Bloodraven, she sees a boy with a wolf-face. Thats definitely a vision producing a hybrid creature in an attempt to communicate a concept: that Bran is both a boy and a wolf.

Dany knows what dragons look like, and she's seen dogs, leading me to believe she has some idea what a wolf looks like. The whole point of the beast vision is that she cannot describe it. Its just some monster, that for all intents and purposes, she has no likeness for, there is no description of the creature. If it was part dragon in anyway, I feel like Dany's brain would say that it was "scaly" or had claws and talons. There would be something that would indicate that it was somewhat familiar to her...It was like a dragon, but wasn't like one also. We even know that it breathed "shadow fire;" yet Dany never connects it to the likeness of a dragon at all.

I think it's fair to say though that a dragon, based on the wings and the fire, is the closest approximation. Whether it's a full-on dragon or a dragon-wolf hybrid or a dragon-something hybrid. When you thought it might be JonCon, you were OK with the term "beast" instead of "griffin," because calling it a griffin would give it away. Might not the same basic thing be going on when calling it a "beast" instead of whatever it really is?

It wouldn't be "scaly," it's made of stone. :P Maybe the stone kept her from identifying it, or the shadow fire was obscuring it. Any number of possibilities.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'm not against the Sphinx theory per se, but I'm not sure that Sarella being Alleras is a lie on the scale of Stannis not being Azor Ahai and Aegon not being Aegon. It's also possible that it is a Sphinx of some sort (but what Sphinx breathes fire?), but in metaphorical terms (the Sphinx is the riddle and the riddler, whatever the word is) and not necessarily Sarella.

Yea I agree the beast could be a sphinx of a wolf and dragon representing Jon or Sarella as a traditional sphinx

I was thinking of another idea that if it was an ice dragon representing Jon Dany might not know it was a dragon, and that could be a possibility

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It wouldn't be "scaly," it's made of stone. :P Maybe the stone kept her from identifying it, or the shadow fire was obscuring it. Any number of possibilities.

This

That's what I was about to say, gargoyles even to me are hard to distinguish in our world.

If the image was a gargoyle it could be a straight out dragon and she didn't recognize it, Jon being a stone dragon meaning he hasn't woken his dragon yet.

Or

A gargoyle sphinx of some kind.

[Ygrain]

I think it's fair to say though that a dragon, based on the wings and the fire, is the closest approximation. Whether it's a full-on dragon or a dragon-wolf hybrid or a dragon-something hybrid. When you thought it might be JonCon, you were OK with the term "beast" instead of "griffin," because calling it a griffin would give it away. Might not the same basic thing be going on when calling it a "beast" instead of whatever it really is?

What I said above.

Looking again at the conversation with Jorah where we get the confirmation of blue flower=blue rose, that part about the stone beast is missing entirely (but there is a nice one for the Red Wedding, a banquet of blood :D). Whatever the beast is, it apparently cannot be renamed as it would give away too much, regardless whether it is a hybrid or a dragon.

[JungWheats]

I guess, my thing is that in hindsight I can see how if the Greyscale epidemic occurs, later on I can see how I'd reread the vision and it'd be like...Oh, its JonCon and Aegon. A griffin is a winged beast, its not so vague that you can't see how it will make sense in the future, based on all the pieces in play. The whole point of the foreshadowing is that it makes you question the first time, and then its so obvious afterwards. I don't really "feel" obvious from the Jon angle.

Plus, Dany has already seen Jon as the blue rose filling the air with sweetness, so he'd be just as redundant as JonCon, right? I can see where you're going with this, but perhaps the problem has come from misunderstanding the Mummer's Dragon, as opposed to the Stone Beast. Perhaps Dany is the Mummer's Dragon?

The way Dany chooses to describe the Mummer's Dragon she doesn't equate the concept to a real threat. A paper dragon on sticks should be something easy for her to brush aside if it is, indeed, Aegon. But Aegon does have the backing power of the Golden Company, which is definitely s group of professional soldiers and the 10000 of them shouldn't have too much trouble with 3000 Unsullied on foot, and so on and so forth. The whole point of Aegon could just be to give the 'actors something to fight' at the end of the story, but by the time she actually gets to Westeros, it should be time to deal with the Others in whatever form or fashion, so Dany won't need an "empty threat" to battle against.

And if Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon, made for an "Actor" to fight, it still sets up the impression that Dany is just an "actor." So the whole metaphor creeps with the suspicion that Dany may not be who she thinks she is. Dany and Jon have been set up, in many ways, to mirror each other, and it seems unlikely that one of them would be set up with a giant identity disorder and the other one would not. Jon thinks he's Ned's bastard, but there's plenty of evidence to say that he isn't. What is Dany's identity problem?

Basically the only identity issues that Dany seems to really NEED to confront is Targaryen madness and the root cause of Robert's Rebellion. And that's not at all on the scale of Jon's possible issues. So it could be that Dany's identity issue is that she is not a Targaryen, and everything that she's used to benchmark and plan her life has been bullshit. What does a non-Targaryen do as Mother of Dragons, no kingdom to claim, etc etc.

So...I guess I've made this bigger than necessary,my bad. And "scaly" was a poor choice, I guess I just meant any sort of word that would make it feel more "dragony."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thanks!

EDIT: Really interesting. Though does it really matter if he's a Blackfyre if they're an offshoot of the Targaryen's? They still have the claim to the throne. If anything it may give him and Dany enough genetic diversity to have normal children (If Dany was able.)

It matters when he's pretending to be Aegon VI. Getting off-topic; there are plenty of other threads in which to discuss fake Aegon. :)

[bent branch]

I am of the opinion that the three lies that Dany is to slay is the same lie in each instance. Stannis has already been publicly claimed to be the PTWP. It is inevitable that Aegon will be claimed to be the PTWP. We know that the people with Aegon know of the prophecy and the scene between Rhaegar and Elia with baby Aegon foreshadows this claim being made. Even if it is through proving Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, she will still prove that Aegon is not the PTWP. Therefore, I believe the third lie is also about someone who will claim or have the claim made about them that they are the PTWP. I don't have a really good idea of who this third person might be, but I firmly believe the lie to be slain about them is that they are not the PTWP. There are three people I have considered for this third person. The first is Euron; the dude is up to something weird. The second is Leyton Hightower; that dude is up to something weird. The third is Dany herself. If Dany proves that someone else is the PTWP, then she naturally proves she is not. I don't have any real strong arguments for any of these people, but I do believe it will be a third false PTWP.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Plus, Dany has already seen Jon as the blue rose filling the air with sweetness, so he'd be just as redundant as JonCon, right? I can see where you're going with this, but perhaps the problem has come from misunderstanding the Mummer's Dragon, as opposed to the Stone Beast. Perhaps Dany is the Mummer's Dragon?

The difference is that the blue rose is in a different triplet, the "bride of fire" triplet. So it has to do with something else. But the mummer's dragon and the stone beast are in the same triplet, the "slayer of lies" triplet, so it's unlikely that they'd refer to the same thing.

And yes, it's possible that the mummer's dragon interpretation is wrong and it's not Aegon. But that's a whole other can of worms to open.

<snip>

That is interesting and it makes sense. I can see it.

[JungWheats]

Is there anyone else that we can reasonably believe are mentioned in seperate sections of the vision? I'd look it up myself but I've got Clash on loan to a girl I work with.

[MasterJack]

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

It could be DORAN MARTELL

-He basicaly live in the Tower of the Sun

-He is a Stone (silent for years, seems to be neutral and he cant move a lot)

-He is a Beast (bad gout)

-Took wing (when he decide to move, or could reprensent him following Young Griffin.)

-Breathing shadow fire: he think/claim to be following a Targ (red fire), but is instead following a Blackfyre (shadow/dark/black fire)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It could be DORAN MARTELL

-He basicaly live in the Tower of the Sun

-He is a Stone (silent for years, seems to be neutral and he cant move a lot)

-He is a Beast (bad gout)

-Took wing (when he decide to move, or could reprensent him following Young Griffin.)

-Breathing shadow fire: he think/claim to be following a Targ (red fire), but is instead following a Blackfyre (shadow/dark/black fire)

I still feel like this is just a repeat of the mummer's dragon, though.

Is there anyone else that we can reasonably believe are mentioned in seperate sections of the vision? I'd look it up myself but I've got Clash on loan to a girl I work with.

Rock solid, no. But not impossible.

[JungWheats]

I guess, if it is Jon...How do we go from the pleasant and hopeful image of a beatiful, struggling, delicate, blue rose clinging to life in the cold and lifeless Wall of Ice to a hellish, demonic beast breathing black fire? Why change the metaphor when we are essentially describing the same thing?

And if they both refer to Jon...how does he go from the the peaceful nature to his destructive nature? And the beast taking wing, to me, indicates widespread destruction, aimed at the helpless. The whole image of the beast presents something huge and terrible, something that has the ability to cause much more death and destruction than I think Jon has the resources to cause, even if he decided death and destruction was something he wanted to do.

Even if the GNC is true and he is thrust up to Kingship in the North, he wouldn't use his bannermen to go South and start killing Lannisters, even if part of him wanted to do. Robb only went south because he hoped to free Ned, and Jon has no goals in the South to accomplish. Jon, even once his dragon is woken, would still remember the Others and the wights. He wouldn't abandon his mission or his vows.

Even if he feels the Watch has turned on him, he won't wash his hands of his responsibilities. So, I can't picture Jon as this great monster, ready to bring fire and blood from his tower.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I guess, if it is Jon...How do we go from the pleasant and hopeful image of a beatiful, struggling, delicate, blue rose clinging to life in the cold and lifeless Wall of Ice to a hellish, demonic beast breathing black fire? Why change the metaphor when we are essentially describing the same thing?

It depends on what "slayer of lies" and "bride of fire" really mean and how they relate to the triplet visions within them. In that sense, it might be describing the same person, but not in the same context or for the same reason. And the flower might not be a good thing either. One vision is also strongly evocative of ice imagery, and other evocative of fire. As in, the two separate halves of Jon's identity.

[Veltigar]

Well, this is awkward... I thought the general consensus on that vision was that it was Jon :blushing:

I mean I think you explained it quite well. IMO the vision is either about Jon or it relates to something we haven't seen yet.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

_{This may be too literal but what about Drogon? He was hatched from a petrified egg and one of Dany's riders calls him Balerion come again and both Drogon and Balerion are said to breathe shadow fire. What if in time Drogon is put to the test as a second Balerion and fails to do so or could Drogon also be a symbol of Dany (in conqueror form as opposed to her silver which represents Dany in a different aspect or before her transformation as Queen/ mother of dragons)? Also could the triple visions tie into a separate theme aside from lies as both Stannis and Aegon are vying for the Iron throne?}