Milz Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Jon's ambition is to be as good as his sword but that is a pretty big call. Personally I think he will be in the top class but not quite a Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowen Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 What needs to happen is not him becoming the next great swordsman. What needs to happen is him becoming the next legendary commander. Randyl Tarly is renowned as the greatest field commander in Westeros right now; what's needed is Jon getting good enough to kick his ass, tactically speaking, not face to face with Valyrian steel drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Chez Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I think Jon will be known for his sword as well as his tactics in the end, but in the NW i think he'll be very well known. I mean he beat Iron Emmet who was sopposed to be the best fighter at Eastwatch at the moment...i see Jon becoming a Jaime type fighter though, speed and skill over strength. I dunno why but i see Jon facing what Royce did in the prologue of GOT, where he was fighting a group of others, i hope we see Jon in one of these situations, cause i doubt anyone else on the wall right now has the skill to face an Other...but it would be interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 He's going to be good. I mean really, really good. He's already been battle-tested, has faced Wights, giants, wargs, all before the age of 17. I think he'll be on the level of Jaime in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I think that he will become very good up in that top tier where a fight can really go either way as the fighter are so closely matched. Plus he will probably never be fighting alone either Ghost is almost always with him so Jon + Ghost = Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Olaf the Courteous Viking Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I dunno why but i see Jon facing what Royce did in the prologue of GOT, where he was fighting a group of others, i hope we see Jon in one of these situations, cause i doubt anyone else on the wall right now has the skill to face an Other...but it would be interesting to see. I never thought of that before but I like the idea a lot. There has to be some reason the Martin put Jon's desire to improve with the sword in there. And that (Royce v Others type o situation) would be a very good reason too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser jon stark Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 i've always wondered why Royce joined the NW in the first place. He's a young knight and is not a bad guy. He must have known that the NW doesn't really make you a legend which is kind of what it sounds like he was looking for do you think there was another reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Milz Personally I think he will be in the top class but not quite a Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane This notion is rather strange to me. Why wouldn't Jon become as capable as Jaime, or Sandor? He seems to have the talent. We've also learned that he's extremely motivated. We've also learned he's got a superb sword. If anything I think that in the fullness of time, he'd become a greater fighter than the two above. He is Rhaegar's son, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Jon will not get as good as Jaime used to be for the simple reason that he doesn't have the time for training that Jaime used to have. The fact is that the time that Jon spends running the Night Watch is time that he could have spent training as a Ranger. Had he gone into the Rangers, in time I like to think he could have matched Jaime at his prime. This is not to say that Jon won't get very good. Natural aptitude counts for quite a bit, not to mention having started his training early. But compared to the best swordsmen out there, who have pretty much made the sword, instead of ruling, a profession, he's going to come in weaker than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Jaime was not only extremely fast and extremely skilled, he was also in the upper tiers in strength as well. At fifteen Jaime held his own against the Smiling Knight. In comparison, Jon admits that Qhorin would have killed him in a second if he wished. GRRM has not written Jon as some martial prodigy like Jaime or Loras, but as a very determined young man who is likely advanced for his age though probably no more than that. IMHO, Jon will not be as good a fighter as either Jaime or Sandor. He will be a very good sword (like Jory) and he will be a brilliant tactician (like Ned and Robb, but greater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Jon admits that Qhorin would have killed him in a second if he wished. Yeah, but didn't you think that he was just trying to make a point to Sam? That's what I got out of it. I didn't really think that the Halfhand could have killed him in a second. Your other points are well made, though. He's not going to have the time to spend training as most fighters do. Seems like he's forcing himself to make time, though, as that Sam POV chapter described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrik the Unsmiling Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 It's interesting that someone else in this thread already brought up Rhaegar. Was anyone else struck by the similarity of Rhaegar's "It seems I must learn to be a warrior" and Jon's desire to be as good as his sword? That really stood out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Mutant Jon will not get as good as Jaime used to be for the simple reason that he doesn't have the time for training that Jaime used to have. It is said early on in AFFC that Jon spends a remarkable amount of time training. Plus he's growing up in an even rougher time than Jaime. Hard times make hard warriors. He'll be very battle hardened in a few years time. Plus he also seems to be a bit cleverer than for instance Jaime. I don't see anything in someone Jaime that would naturally elevate him over someone like Jon. And Jaime is ranked among the best. Sandor, now he would have the natural advantage of his great height but with great height come some traditional disadvantages that a very gifted fighter might exploit. Mike, I don't see why Jon isn't the martial prodigy Jaime or Loras was, or why he cannot become one in a year or two. He's not a tourney knight no, and Loras would undoubtedly unhorse him. But in real battle.... I think Jon is being written as a great swordsman actually. His character has all the hallmarks of it and he is going to have some quality that sets him apart from others, since he seems to be one of the main adversaries of The Others. Arys will have Faceless Men training. Bran and the Children of the Forest. Dany and her magical, unique dragons, and all the force that she brings with her, but what does Jon have to really stand out, other than being a superb commander and warrior? No, it's not his being a Warg, or certainly not just that, because there are quite a few who have this skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 If anything I think that in the fullness of time, he'd become a greater fighter than the two above. He is Rhaegar's son, after all. The Rhaegar comparison is a good one, but Rhaegar, while a very very good swordsman, doesn't seem to have been absolutely legendary with the blade (judging by Barristan's comments to Dany). Rhaegar (like Jon) fought because he thought he had to, unlike someone like Jaime Lannister, who fights because he actually enjoys fighting. People who enjoy it are naturally going to have an edge over those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mon43 Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Impossible to tell at the moment, but considering his determination and dedication he could become very good. That is one of the things about his character, if he does something he tries to do it to the very best of his abilities. We know he was better than Robb in practice, though we never really found out about Robbs martial skills bar his leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crannogman Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Gods no... I hope he doesn't become the super bestest greatest swordsman ever... Because that's what happens to every fantasy hero everywhere. (Case in point: Rand. And Mat. And Perrin. And all the other WOT characters under the age of 20.) And I don't think this is going to happen either. It would have been remarked on if he had shown anywhere near Jaime's capabilities. Jon's good, sure. Better than 90% of the enemies he's likely to face (barring the Others) and as good or better than most knights too, I don't doubt. But he's not some legend in the making... save perhaps a Night's Watch legend, which is easier because they only have two or three knights amongst them... Nor do I think there's any indication he'll be a tactics prodigy like Robb. Sure, he's sensible and smart and will learn to be good... but better than Robb or Ned? Wouldn't that be a bit much, a Stark family composed of nothing but tactical geniuses? It was new and fun with Robb, but we only need one young wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz Posted November 25, 2005 Author Share Posted November 25, 2005 Calibandar I'm all for Jon reaching the peak of swordsmanship, I'm just hesistant to say it will happen. If he does get as good as his sword it looks like he may well be the best fighter in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Pie Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Jon is good, and will be great, but I doubt he'll ever become legendary. Jon isn't harder or more experienced than Jaime was at that age. Sure, he trains a lot, but has he actually killed anyone in sword-to-sword combat? The only one I can think of is Qhorin, and that was only because Qhorin let himself be killed. On a somewhat related note, who is the best fighter in Martinworld right now? All the best seem to be maimed or killed (Jaime, Sandor, Gregor, Syrio, Oberyn, Loras). Jon may eventually be up there, but not right now. Bronn maybe, or Garlan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Areo Hotar has to be on that list. The Blackfish too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Chez Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Sure, he trains a lot, but has he actually killed anyone in sword-to-sword combat? The only one I can think of is Qhorin, and that was only because Qhorin let himself be killed. Im not sure, but when he escaped the wildings in SOS i think he cut off a few limbs or bashed a head in or 2 before he mounted the horse. And dont forget he killed Orell on the mountain, hes also pretty much defeated everyone hes faced when training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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