How good will Jon get?

[Mike]

Maia

We have date regarding Jaime's height and strength when he was 15 or 16?

The question of Jon's height was broached to GRRM a couple of years ago, it's in the SSM, he said that Jon would probably fill out to become 6'. Jaime might be an inch or two taller but that'll be it. I don't recall any estimation of strength that compares favourably with Jon.

As for Loras, yes, he's battle hardened, he's a prodigy and a great knight. At the moment I would favour him in a fight with Jon, but not necessarily in one or two years time.

In general:

I still see no indications that show Jon is in any way a less gifted fighter than other great knights of the era, whoever you might like to bring up, other than that some people really don't *want* Jon to become a great warrior, which is of course a totally different subject. He seems to be made of the right stuff, is extremely motivated and has a great sword. I doubt Sam's reference to a hero fighting with a dragonsteel blade against the Others was a worthless one, especially since the general rise of Jon's character throughout the series.

CB

Jaime's not that big, and nor is Garlan as far as we know.

Calibandar,

In ASOS, Jaime is making a mental note of knights who are stronger than him. The list is pretty short. I don't know how this translates to when he was fifteen, but he does remark to Loras that he was bigger, stronger, and faster than him, and we've seen a good deal of explosive strength from Loras.

On the general issue, the flip side is that many *want* Jon to be a great swordsman and therefore will read things in the text that may not be there (e.g. the one fellow earlier who said that Jon's admission of Qhorin's complete superiority of their faceoff was misleading and was said only to make a point to Sam or that Jon's pounding of Iron Emmet was not the exception but the rule). Imho, there is nothing in the text that suggests he will be in the Rhaegar/Arthur Dayne/Barristan/Jaime/Sandor class. He beat Iron Emmet, he beat Qhorin in a thrown fight, he trains a lot. The first two aren't that impressive when considering the accomplishments of the realm's greater warriors, and as for the third, well, all the knights in KL are training constantly too. Does this mean Tallad will be one of the best warriors in the realm? I'm not saying Jon won't be a good fighter, only that he won't be one of the best. Ned was only average but is perhaps one of the main reasons Robert won the war. Jon's character will not diminish if he is not some god with a sword, but imho, will only be that much more interesting a hero.

[Oorag]

I get the impression that the Lannister "type" is tall. Tywin is described as being tall and graceful and Cersei and Jaime are both rather statuesque. I never got the impression that Jaime is burly, but he's probably a strapping big guy, stronger than average at the very least.

And I agree that nothing has really suggested that Jon will not be a particularly great swordfighter compared to the active knights of Westeros. He had a knight's training as a boy and will continue seeking to improve as he ages, the same as any knight. He'll probably amount to a better than average knight, I suspect, but he'll never be the Valyrian Steel of swordfighters.

[Krafus]

Well, I for one would like to see Jon become of the the top swordsman in Westeros. But I admit I'm shamelessly like asskickers, and would like to see through the eyes of one as written by GRRM (we've only had one scene of that, when Jaime fought Brienne).

As to whether it will happen... No idea. One one hand, Jon is in good physical shape, is said to be quick and graceful, is training very hard, and did quite well when he was acting purely on instinct or rage (like when Summer leapt among the wildlings and when he became angry while fighting Iron Emmett). On the other hand, he has yet to exhibit the natural talent that had already been noted in Jaime and Loras at a similar age. So I think it could go either way.

Anyway, even if he doesn't make it to the top tier, I expect him to be at least second-tier - good enough to defeat most foes and establish a reputation as a noted swordsman, but no match for top fighters like Loras and Garlan Tyrell.

[King oop North]

It's strange trying to compare Jon to Jaime or Loras or Sandor or any other reknowned fighter in the series, because there's a kind of evolution concerning them. Loras et al are famous primarily because they are good fighters, GRRM hasn't taken a random noble and said, 'look what they became with a bit of training and battlefield experience', we just see the finished result of those who have made it. In Westeros there will be countless other sons of nobles who go through a similar level of training and end up as indifferent knights at best.

Now this isn't saying that Jon won't be a great fighter, but until he proves himself, comparing his level of training etc to other great fighters will be quite useless.

[CelticBrennus]

That's huge for a feudal society. Childhood disease and poor nutrition kept European knights shorter than your average modern shoe salesman.

Actually surviving suits of medieval armor tend to be sized for people ranging from 5'9" to about 6'4" Height is strongly related to diet as a child, and getting plenty of protien and such. A member of the knightly class would not be skimping on their food. A serf perhaps, a lord or knight though...not a chance. They probably were healthier then most of us are. Most of the disparity of size is not so much a medieval thing, as an industrial revolution one in any case.

Ran: I also remember that part where Jaime draws the mental listing of those stronger then he is. IIRC, he lists Strongboar, Sandor, Gregor, the Greatjon, and maybe a few others. A more slender or lilthe man would have had a whole lot more on that list.

[Ran]

CB,

I'm not saying he's slender. He's never described as slender. But he's not "very large", as Brienne substantially outweighing him shows.

[CelticBrennus]

But she also outwieghs him after he spent a year rotting in a cell. He could not have been stretching the truth too much when he put himself among the top 5-10 strongest knights in Westeros. I just have a hard time picturing someone who could rank themselves like that, and not be described a large guy.

[Marcher Lord]

Wether or not Jon is the best isnt what is needed......what matters is that Jon can hold his own in the battles he faces....and i think thats the direction Martin is goin with this

He most likely will never fight the above listed knights.....and the way they are getting knocked off....pretty sooon Jon will be the best/ the top teir (i think he already is above average for sure)

Jon is castle trained, with a good fighting blood line behind him (either way u look at it) and he is built like Ned......Ned wasnt the best, but Ned was known as a damn good battle commander and Ned held his own in 2 wars to get to the age he was. And from what we know.....Ned wasnt an arm chair general....he lead. Not sayin Jon IS ned.....but Jon has the skills to be good. And Jon isnt needed to be a "kickass, nothing can stop me" fighter.....he is needed as a battle commander than leads from the front.......u dont have to be the best, u need a brain.

Jon wont be Sandor.....but how good is Sandor really? Last i checked he was cut up pretty bad in a tavern but sellswords. Gregor? Freakish size......but have we seen him go against the Kingslayer (speed, skill) or Bronn (speed, intelligence, expirence)

.....and the Red Viper pretty much owned Gregor.

Jon is smart enough, quick enough, and determined enough to make a damn good fighter ........give him a little more expirence and see what happens. He isnt down south playin at tourneys...he is at war. He is of the North and hasnt had time for his name to built up in the games of south.

How many speak of Bronn as one of the best? u think the lords of the realm think of Bronn as a threat? But we all know different. Hell, there could be half a thousand men in the kingdoms that could be as good as Loras/Bronn/Garlan/Sandor (u get the point).....no one knew the HalfHand down south.....and god knows how many hedge knights there are?

Point is, Jon could already be there......but how are we to know when he doesnt get the chance for others to notice him? or for him to be compared up close to one of the "greats"???? Hell, Iron Emmit COULD BE better than Jaimie......we never see Jaimie and Emmit fight it out do we?

[Crannogman]

Whilst he indeed could theoretically be, the odds are against it. As King oop North stated, there are thousands upon thousands of young warriors in Westeros. The vast majority of these will never distinguish themselves over the pack. What reason is there to assume that Jon is any better than Joe Knight?

The thing is, prodigies get noted. Exceptionally talented swordsmen get noted. Nobody ever remarked on Jon's swordfighting skills. Nobody ever thought he was really good. I think it's stretching things immensely to assume Jon is a legendary swordsman merely because there isn't any direct evidence to the contrary.

[Sloanzilla]

Wasn't Sandor wounded and drunk before the fight with Polliver and the Tickler, and he and Arya still won. Whenever anyone references a really difficult foe, they seem to go with Sandor. Jaime knows that he's cut Strongboar- an above average fighter- up. The Tickler and Polliver were both above-average as well.

Oberyn made the choice of a spear to combat Gregor's rage. He was also fighting with 15 years of pent up rage. That matters in stories, and sometimes in real life.

If I was a betting man, I'd still go with either Clegane brother to beat anyone.

I see Bronn as a wildcard (like Oberyn)- he's not officially as good as Gregor or Sandor- but he's a smart enough fighter to turn anything to his advantage. Bronn is also the one fighter we've never seen really come close to losing.

I don't really think there's much chance of there being some unknown hedge knight who is actually the best. In a society where might is right, the cream is going to rise to the top. There might be farmers with more natural gift than a Garlan or Loras, but none have the combination of training, experience and gift.

[Marcher Lord]

Jon is a bastard boy.....from the north. When does he have time to be shown off? He was said to be better than Robb, yet Jon was never allowed to fight Joffery......And Ned wasnt a father that pushed to be known (as Lord Tarly)

How many great names are from humble birth? All the above listed as "great" are all lords or sons of known houses. How many named knights are the sons of common stock?

Of course a Tyrell son is goin to be touted on.......he's a Tyrell....If Mace took a shit, people would call it a Rose

Same could be said of Tywins son....(excepting that those sons ARE good)

Jon is a bastard of a father who is ashamed of the fact that he has a bastard.

Jon im thinkin is a above average sword. Im not saying he is the best, but id say he is above average. Certainly above the usual decent level of most sons of lordly houses.

What is Jon.....16-17? Jaimie didnt get noted till what....16? (dont remember.....)

now Jon is in the North....he hasnt been in any war in the South.....who is goin to note him? The watch? He is noted there....he hasnt had the opportunities to lead the van in a major battle were many lordly sons are fighting.....he hasnt won the day of a major battle in the south....of course he hasnt been noted. Garlan and Loras carved thier names in the southern battles.....b4 that Loras was just a pretty flower

im not tryin to stretch it here.....just i think he is already above average....

And im not sayin that the names Mentioned are bad fighters......

Loras,Garlan,Sandor,Gregor,Bronn....Jaimie

these guys set the bar.....

but i am sayin that Jon is gettin there

[Ran]

CB,

That may be, but GRRM isn't comparing 'post-Riverrun dungeons' Jaime to Brienne. He's just saying, flat out, that Brienne outweighs Jaime by quite a bit.

Jaime was comparing himself to a number of notable fighters who were also stronger than he was. But he was noting that just because they were stronger, it didn't mean they could beat him. I don't think this necessarily means he puts himself in the top 5 or 10 in Westeros for strong warriors.

If someone in the books calls him "very large", or something similar, then that'll prove it. But until then, I believe the preponderance of evidence is that Jaime would not be called "muscle-bound". He's strong, as any man with his training and natural aptitude would be strong, but I don't think he has "prodigious" strength.

(For what it's worth, the depiction of Jaime done by Jamie Sims, which was supervised by GRRM, seemed to me to be notably less powerful in build than Sims' depiction of the Hound, which was definitely approved by GRRM. I wouldn't consider Jamie 'huge' or 'very large', based on the evidence in the books and based on that one depiction that GRRM oversaw.)

[Krafus]

The thing is, prodigies get noted. Exceptionally talented swordsmen get noted. Nobody ever remarked on Jon's swordfighting skills. Nobody ever thought he was really good. I think it's stretching things immensely to assume Jon is a legendary swordsman merely because there isn't any direct evidence to the contrary.

Ah, but we're not arguing how good Jon currently is, but how good he can/will get. As to Jon's skills never being noted, he did seem to be about as good as Iron Emmett - who does have something of a reputation.

And when Jon grew angry, he kicked Emmett's ass.

[Miryana Storm]

(For what it's worth, the depiction of Jaime done by Jamie Sims, which was supervised by GRRM, seemed to me to be notably less powerful in build than Sims' depiction of the Hound, which was definitely approved by GRRM. I wouldn't consider Jamie 'huge' or 'very large', based on the evidence in the books and based on that one depiction that GRRM oversaw.)

Are these pictures of Jaime and Sandor in the new artbook?

[groundmeat]

As for Jamie being a large man, the only person who says this was Ned, who wasn't that big to begin with - 5'10/5'8 is the impression I got. And when Jamie was comparing his strength to others, he was only comparing against other *fighters* - so this certainly doesn't mean Jamie is one of the strongest *men* in the land.

As for Jon, I think he will become very good - he's training dilligently against battle hardened soldiers every day, and he has more motivation than most people to become good. Plus we don't know exactly what his training regimen is (against more than 1 opponent etc.) - so in time he may even become top tier. But who knows - as someone pointed out, it's more important that he become a good battle commander ala Ned or Randyll - being good at politicking like Tywin will not do him any good against the Others.

At this point in time, any of the top fighters will massacare Jon. And IMO The best fighter in the book, under equal conditions is definitely the Hound - the almost effortless way he held off Gregor at the tourney, his battle with Polliver and Tickler while drunk, makes me think he is strong, skilled and cunning enough to take anyone down.

Bronn and Barristan are the other two who impresses me as fighters - skill, strength and cunning combined.

[King oop North]

Ah, but we're not arguing how good Jon currently is, but how good he can/will get. As to Jon's skills never being noted, he did seem to be about as good as Iron Emmett - who does have something of a reputation.

And when Jon grew angry, he kicked Emmett's ass.

You're missing the point. The truly great swordsmen we know about are rarities, with the huge number of noble families' sons who train on a regular basis these are the ones who have distinguished themselves, indeed they only really come to our attention because they are great. With these numbers, the balance of probability is that without any other information Jon will become a good swordsman with training, but most likely an undistinguished one. Added to this there is no doubt that the truly great swordsmen would have proved their mettle or at least demonstrated signs of superlative potential before Jon's age.

As to Iron Emmett, there must be a question as to how good he actually is. Being number one on the wall, especially after all the high profile casualties recently, the current decrease in the quality of men going to the wall and the presumably poor level of teaching that takes place there, isn't as great a distinction as all that. And with him becoming better than Iron Emmett it suggests a limit to the training he can acheive anyway. As he said in the last book "he would never get any better going up against the likes of Satin and Horse, or even Grenn" Well if he can now beat Emmett where is he going to learn new skills from?

I think with training Jon will become a competent/ good swordsman, but nothing we have seen to date will place him in the 'great' catagory.

[Aegon]

We know Jaime is very fast, coordinated and pretty tall/long. He doesn't need to be as freakishly strong as one of the Cleganes to deliver horrificly effective blows. The two important things for a swordsman are 1) does his cut or thrust strike where he wishes it to? and 2) how fast (i.e. how much force) is it moving when it strikes. It's like in baseball where it doesn't matter as much how much a hitter can bench but how much bat speed he can generate. Jaime is quicker than the freakishly strong, so his sword starts accelerating sooner and at a greater rate than theirs. He's tall and rangy, so for a cutting stroke he has great leverage working in his favor. The other thing helping Jaime is that by not being quite as heavy, his ability to react and change what he's doing is greater simply because he doesn't have to redirect the momentum of quite as much mass.

In short, if you were to design a perfect swordsman, you'd be a lot closer to Jaime than one of the Cleganes. If we're talking combat with a mace or battleaxe, OK, you go with Gregor or someone built like him. It's like comparing Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'Neal - both are the best at what they do, so you've got to ask yourself, what do you need done?

[Mutant for Hire]

Building on what Aegon said, swords range all over the freakin' place. A large question depends on what sort of armor everyone is wearing and what swords they're using to deal with said armor. For that matter, there may be multiple types of swordplay, from battlefield swordsmanship where you have heavily armored knights and you use big heavy two-handed swords that can barely cut but are great for transmitting force through armor towards 'city' weapons where everyone is lightly armored at best and you want light swords that can cut, stab and slash depending.

And as Aegon pointed out, what build is optimal depends heavily on the type of swordplay. If we're going to discuss physiques, first we need to discuss the types of swords and fighting styles, not to mention fighting situations seen in ASoIaF. Then we can discuss whose build is better. I'll leave it to greater devotees of the series and swords to sort out combat styles.

[Calibandar]

The thing is, prodigies get noted. Exceptionally talented swordsmen get noted. Nobody ever remarked on Jon's swordfighting skills. Nobody ever thought he was really good

In the books that I read, Jon Snow was sent to the Wall at age 14. That pretty much does in "getting noted" for one's prowess. Except at the Wall itself of course, where we have seen him do very well in a couple of fights. Also recall Grenn's flashback in ASOS, in which we learn that this guy, "built like an aurochs" and a tough opponent, recalls really hating having to fight Jon because he was so fast and fierce.

[unJon]

I would bet on Syrio over any other fighter (even the hound) in a straight up sword fight.