Evolett

There's no mention of blood sacrifice in connection with the water magic of the Rhoynar that I can recall. Perhaps, in the case of water wizards calling on Mother Rhoyne to rise, the magic is paid for by the ensuing "blood," i.e drowning, death of the victims, which is more or less guaranteed. Maybe Greyscale is a long-term "payment" for this type of magic. Readers have different interpretations for the Hammer of the Waters. I lean towards the Hammer actually being a case of water magic, coupled with earth magic and because of certain hints in the text, doubt the CotF acted alone. I think their greenseers included practitioners of water magic. In any case the blood-price paid for that effort was very high.

Yes, this looks good and may be a valid connection to Lightbringer and the Azor Ahai legend. My first thought when reading this and the accompanying citation is that if this is so, the sigil is very well positioned: right in the midst of Stannis as a version of Azor Ahai and his wife Selyse who is a Florent and a woman so fervernt in a faith that she would probably gladly willingly sacrifice herself for the cause if need be. We even have the fox's snout poking through the breastplate! It allows us some interesting speculation on the personality and nature of the original Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. For instance, was Azor Ahai a trickster figure (the fox)? I've never really thought of Stannis in terms of a trickster figure but considering how Renly and Penrose died... Also significant would be Nissa Nissa's association with blue flowers in this symbolism and what that might mean in respect of Lyanna and Jon (though I think the blue winter roses encompass further attributes not shared with the blue lapis-lazuli flowers).

I don't see a title being awarded for such mundane reasons, especially since its counterpart, the Sword of the Morning, comes with the requirement of having to prove oneself worthy . It's also capitalized and seems to be of significance. With the Sword of the Morning also being a constellation, Dawn being forged from a fallen star, we also get the distinct feeling here that GRRM might be going for Venus imagery and all that goes with it - Morning Star / Evening Star, Venus as the evening star's association with the fallen angel Lucifer etc. There may be separate swords allotted to the two titles, that's one option. That Vorian Dayne was a Sword of the Morning whose title was revoked and changed to Sword of the Evening when he was defeated and sent to the Wall is another possiblity. If he did carry Dawn, he obviously did not take it to the Wall. The title would befit a former Sword of the Morning who joined the Night's Watch.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this. The only "bat-like" "deity" I can think of is the Harpy. She has bat-like wings, but she is described as an emblem and not as a deity or goddess. The Harpy of Old Ghis is the oldest version we know of. It's possible she was once a goddess retained by some of those absorbed into the Valyrian Empire after the fall of Old Ghis. There are tales of Mad Danelle who sent giant bats to steal naughty children for her cook pots. This actually harks back to mythological harpies. The name "harpy" comes from the Greek word "harpyia," meaning "snatcher" or "robber." The name reflects their tendency to seize and carry off their victims, often related to food or punishment. The Ghiscari Harpies as an emblem of slavery also suits this image since people are literally carried off into slavery. I think my problem with the OP is I don't really understand why the Andals mistaking a bat for an axe is significant and I'm not convinced this was the case. What I have considered for a long time is a possible connection between the Harpy of Old Ghis that carried a thunderbolt in her talons (suggesting an association with storms) and the Storm God of Ironborn belief, perhaps also with the Westersoi Storm Lords. Since Robert's famous hammer is double headed, the latter could also tie into the bat/axe idea.

I think given the circumstances it is rather hard to confirm Vorian had whatsoever crime asides from fighting Nymeria. Nymeria did send all of her defeated opponents to the Wall as a substitute for execution after all. That's true. For all we know he may have even been sent off in a Ned Stark-like situation. The company of kings does arouse some suspicion however. Four of the six kings sound rather sinister and while this does not prove Vorian Dayne or "Swords of the Evening" are less than savoury characters, it does give me reason to pause and speculate. House Nymeros Martell subdued many more Dornisch houses / petty kings than these six. Perhaps these six refused to bend the knee or maybe she regarded them as particularly dangerous to the newly established order. She seems to have acknowledged their status by sending them off in golden fetters rather than in stronger iron chains. Vorian may have been a "great knight" but what does that really mean and why was he a sword of the evening, rather than a sword of the morning? There must be a difference, otherwise there would be no need for two titles.

Can you elaborate on this? I agree with the importance of Dany being a mother and am interested in any ideas you may have on this. What stands out to me in the HotU is how the first vision presented to her mirrors her final experience in the chamber of the Undying. In the chamber, Dany is the beautiful young girl being ravaged by the Undying. But it's not only the Undying who want her life. The slaves clamour for her life too: Personally, I think these scenes are central to the backstory, to the mystery of the quirky seasons. They conjure up images of a "mother goddess" or earth goddess who is raped and abused, having the life sucked out of her until she can give no more but is forced to deliver. In terms of the seasons, summers that go on for years guarantee enough food and prosperity for all (provided the rains oblige as well). It's a desirable condition but at the end of the day, "all men" and all life must die for regeneration and rebirth to occur. This happens too infrequently on Planetos and the reason is magical in nature. Daenerys may represent this metaphorical abused mother goddess, who is now trying to break out of this cycle of forever "giving her life" to the people. The Undying of Qarth reside in a city surrounded by a "garden of bones" and a blistering desert. From the histories we know the land dried up behind them as the ancestors of the Qartheen moved ever farther south. The Undying are like this desert, dried up and hanging on to life only through magic, waiting a thousand years for Daenerys to appear and revive them. Did their magic contribute to the asynchronous seasons? And how do dragons fit into the picture? As to the dragons, the answer probably lies in the fact that they somehow "bring magic into the world." They facilitate magic. If magic is a force that flows, for example, from the bowels of the earth, from volcanos, from trees or nature in general, then dragons represent an amplifying intermediary between the source and the practitioner. So for the Undying of Qarth to be able to work their spells (not only the Undying), they need access to this "dragon blood," to the mother goddess who represents life, and to dragons, bringing us round to the "mother of dragons" again. We may wonder whether Dany was inspired to end slavery by the vision of the slaves clamouring for her life fires in the HotU (that and the circumstance of her having being sold herself). Fact is, she liberates the people but cannot feed them all, though she does her best to provide for them. There is a lesson there as well. Endless years of produce, of giving, of summer, are unsustaiable in the long run. When that goes on for centuries with no proper period of rest and rejuvenation, the land is exhausted. The climate changes, whole regions dry out (see East of the Bones mountains and the dessication of the Silver Sea in Essos). And this indeed is what dragons also represent. When the magic they mediate is used indiscriminately, the result is scorched earth. Let's not forget that Old Valyria was also known as the "Land of the Long Summer," and was at one time the most fertile place on the planet (according to tWoIaF).

Good read. I have not read the Elric of Melnibone series but your synopsis sums it up nicely. I take it one of your main points centres around Daenerys becoming very much darker due to her bond with Drogon, as Elric was somewhat corrupted by his sword Stormbringer. As other readers have pointed out, we have no real proof that the personalities of Targs were affected by their dragons. I can however see GRRM using this concept in relation to some swords in the story, especially in respect of Ice and Dawn. Thinking about it, there may even be several not so obvious hints to the idea of a sword influencing its owner negatively in the narrative. We know Valyrian Steel swords have physical properties that make them superior weapons. It's also likely that human sacrifice was a component in their forging. Several of the swords we've been introduced to seem to have a life of their own. Dawn is said to have been forged in the heart of a fallen star. It's an exceptional blade that's "alive with light" and is only passed on to a member of the Dayne family who has proven himself worthy to swing this sword. The question is, why only one who is "worthy." Two titles are available with the sword - the Sword of the Morning and the Sword of the Evening. GRRM gives us Ser Arthur Dayne, the "finest knight" Ned ever saw, as an example. He was the Sword of the Morning. IIRC Vorian Dayne is the only one mentioned to have held the title of Sword of the Evening and he was sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria. What were his crimes? Dawn being "alive with light" suggests a sacrifice perhaps akin to the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the forging of Lightbringer. LB too is a sword that burns with light - the red sword of heroes. What effect might the sacrificed soul have on the wielder? Would the personality of the human sacrificed affect both the sword and the wielder? Perhaps an honourable owner who is worthy, like Arthur Dayne, has the strength of character to withstand the negative influences of such a sword, while a dishonourable wielder's character will be reinforced, rendering him ever more sinister and monstrous. I think the key aspect here is honour. Brienne tells Nimble Dick the tale of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight. The maiden herself bestowed the Just Maid upon him but he used it only thrice and never against a mortal man: Ser Galladon refused to use his weapon against ordinary mortals because it would have been an unfair fight. There was no honour in it. Galladon was an honourable knight who did not take advantage of his opponents. And perhaps unsheathing the sword only thrice was a necessary precaution to prevent the sword from becoming ever more potent to the point of influencing its owner in a negative manner. The question of honour also crops up with Jon and Longclaw. Ser Jorah dishonoured himself and his house when he sold poachers into slavery. He was no longer worthy of the sword, leaving it behind. LC Mormont passes Longclaw to Jon as a reward for saving him from wighted Othor, an unprecedented and frankly amazing gift. For some reason, Mormont must think Jon Snow worthy of inheriting the Mormont family heirloom. Ice is tempered with Ned Stark's blood and has been reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. What effect might the honourable Ned's blood and soul have on the blades and their wielders? It's possible the two blades are now more "balanced" than the original Ice. Should "Darkstar" Gerold Dayne get hold of Dawn, I can see him becoming a "Sword of the Evening." He says of himself that he is "of the night" and he cuts a sinister figure. He is not worthy to bear the sword. If Dawn's power includes an ability to influence the wieder, then Darkstar may become very dark indeed.

Hmm, would anyone want to marry their daughter to Jon, knowing he is undead? I suppose some fathers or daughters may be ambitious enough.

Well, GRRM is certainly not very forthcoming on this issue but I think it all boils down to a mixture of inheritance, Dany's dragon dreams, a couple of "aha moments," Rhaego's possible influence, lessons learned from Miiri, the arrival of the bleeding star at just the right moment and Dany's supreme confidence that she would succeed. A set of fortuitous circumstances coming together in the right mix to effect a waking of fossilized dragon eggs. Inheritance: no dragon eggs hatching / baby dragons surviving after the dance suggests the "blood of the dragon" was obliterated from Targaryen lineage because of the decimation of the house during the civil war. There were simply no Targs left with the trait. Either that or it was too weak to induce dragon hatching. Personally, I think that over time, they slowly recovered components of the "blood" by intermarrying with FM families and with the Daynes. These are all very old bloodlines, possibly older than the Targaryen bloodline itself and at one point originating in the East, in Essos. It took time for the bloodline to recover and issue forth someone with a very strong interation of the blood. We must take Drogo into consideration. He is compared to Aegon the Conqueror and he is the "sun" to Dany's "moon" (think Legend of Qarth here). Did he have the blood of the dragon? Interesting also is that Dany began having dragon dreams before her wedding to Drogo, prior to receiving the eggs. While dreaming of Viserys hitting and hurting her, a dragon comes to the rescue: The dream dragon dealt with Viserys, but at this point Dany is still very fearful but the next time the dragon appears in her dreams, it gives her the strength to accept her new way of life with the Dothraki as well as bear Drogo's nightly visits. So here we have the dream dragon preparing her for what is to come. Making her anew, strong and fierce and this is a prerequisite to all that will follow. Dany needs to be strong, fearless and confident to be able to tread the path before her. This actually reminds me of the howling of the direwolves sustaining Bran while he lay in his coma. Same principle. The dreams contribute to activating Dany's dragon blood. As time goes on, she learns many things that shed light on factors important to "waking dragons." There is the Legend of Qarth with its metaphor of the moon cracking to release dragons into the world. The moon is at the same time an "egg" and "the wife of the sun." The children of these heavenly bodies are dragons infused with the fire of the sun. Fire. Heat. One ingredient. Dany also discovers that she can handle hot dragon eggs placed in the fire without blistering her hands, while others cannot. She is fire-resistant to a degree (she also liked scalding hot baths while still at Illyrio's manse. For a while now, I've speculated on the idea that Rhaego was actually Azor Ahai, (un)born of "salt and smoke," aka Dany and Drogo. I don't want to get too far into that here but it seems likely that Rhaego was a key factor in kindling the spark of life within the dragon eggs. Dany is lying down, holding the green dragon egg: She feels her baby reaching out to the egg. Notice: brother to brother, blood to blood and Dany thinking of her son as the true dragon. I don't think she's wrong. Recall also, that the Targs placed dragon eggs in the cradles of the infants, similar to what Dany does here. She repeats this factor of being close to the eggs when she joins them in the funeral pyre. In her fevered "wake the dragon" dream she experiences the urgency of escaping "icy breath," turns into a dragon and flies at the end of it (another parallel to Bran who also flies at the end of his three-eyed-crow dream). Then there is Mirri and the lessons learned from her. Only death can pay for life, the most important lesson. But who did Mirri give up her life for? Daenerys is my answer to that. Dany is not completely immune to fire. To be able to survive the fire, to become the "Unburnt," Dany needed to pay with a life in return - Mirri's life, the life of a magic-practitioner and godswife . After euthanizing Drogo, all these factors come together, realisation crystallises and she knows exactly what to do. The strength imparted by the dream dragon, her determination, proximity to the eggs, great heat to crack them open, a life to give so that she may remain unburnt, a heavely sign that may have been a kick-start to magic in the world. Even before visiting the Undying, she is aware of the following: To top it off, she decides to wait for a sign, another ingredient, and what do you know, the bleeding star appears. Now this is significant because Rhaegar noted a comet on Aegon's conception and Mel too speaks of bleeding stars in conjunction with waking dragons from stone. I would say the comet was a requirement as well. Daenerys waits until Mirri's screams subside before entering the fire. At this point the godswife is probably dead, her life given in exchange for Dany's. It is probably also important that Drogo receives appropriate funeral rites. As the pyre burns, Dany opens her arms to the fire, embracing it, thinking of it as a wedding. Like Bran who weds and becomes one with the weirwood, Dany becomes one with the fire and works a miracle. We can speculate on where Dany's dragon dreams came from. Who sent them? Some readers cite Quaith. Perhaps.

It's fun spinning things further, especially when the OP offers refreshing insights . Yes, treasure buried in a latrine assoicated place might be a connection. And one could also say Mole's Town leads us again to Jon /john. Though Jon rejects seeking the services of sex workers at Mole's Town, he and Waymar are the only 2 characters linked to moleskin. My gut feeling is there's an underlying motif to the mole references. "Mole" can be interpreted in a number of different ways and there is the possible wordplay to consider as well. Take moles as in "skin marks" - mole skin or moles kin amongst other possibilites. Jon has no moles or natural skin marks that we know of but it's interesting that Nestor Royce, cousin once removed to Waymar, bears a mole (according to Sweetrobin). Jon didn't go looking for "buried treasure" in Mole's Town but he found buried treasure in the form of the hidden cache of dragonglass and the horn: Dragonglass as treasure? Is there a connection to the john as in privy as well? Perhaps. Obisdian forms from cooled lava flows. Lav? There's also Tyrion of the sewers and privy who becomes the vastly rich Yezzan of Yunkai's special "treasure".

This is becoming even more interesting! Considering Theon's probably been castrated and "is no longer a man," that he's lived amongst the hounds / girls, has suffered a great deal of torture at the hands of Ramsay, and joins the circle of spearwives as you've pointed out, could it be the new Theon will "come back as a bitch?" His ship was named "Sea Bitch." It could also be a reference to Asha who perfectly fits the image of women who might come back as bitches. Coming to think of it, with all her weeping and sobbing, poor Jeyne (fArya) is probably not in this category. She does not fulfill Ramsay's requirements for "good sport." The real Arya would though. Perhaps I'm not too far off with the idea that the "privy" may also represent a skinchanger's familiar animal as a place to take refuge. I do see Mance's spearwives as a reflection of Ramsay's "girls" and of the whores going to the privy motif that @Sandy Clegg has figured out. When Melisandre tasks Mance with retrieving "the grey girl on the dying horse," supposedly Arya, he asks for spearwives from Mole's Town: So we're back to the privy again. I have not considered the Whents as "Ent Wives" but now that you mention this, the spearwives /washerwomen with their nature names remind me of Asha recalling this legend of the CotF during the battle against Stannis at Deepwood Motte, when she realizes the Northmen are disguised as trees: I'm not sure if GRRM would go for trees actually becoming mobile but I can see the spirits of these warrior women going into the trees. That fits in with what we know about the beliefs of the CotF so far. If the Pink Letter was written by Ramsay and the spearwives were really captured and flayed, they would have suffered a death as horrible the peasant girls. Instead of being "reincarnated" as hounds, they become nature spirits capable of intervening in the real world? Mance supplied the names of the women he wanted from Mole's Town. He says "young and pretty" but it's more likely they had key important characteristics he felt would be useful to his mission. One of the spearwives is named "Willow Witch-Eye." Maybe a clue. My memory of Mole's Town and what happens there is a bit fuzzy. Think I need a reread.

I keep coming back to this post, examining it from different points of view and after considering possible clues hidden within the "whore - john" connection, have gravitated to "whores and ladies." I think a case can be made for this too. When Tyrion asks where whores go, he really is seeking an answer to Tysha's whereabouts. Where did she go after her ordeal? Now, if we stick to the underlying euphemism - "needing to go," as in going to the toilet, the Westerosi version, is the "privy." It's also used as an adjective, stemming from Latin "privatus" meaning private. Yes, when we need “to go” we prefer a bit of privacy. This got me thinking. I put aside the “whores” and focussed on Tysha. Could she have sought privacy in one way or another and if so, when and how? After considering and discarding several options, one remaining thought makes the most sense to me: if she needed a form of “privacy,” she may have needed it most during the horrific experience inflicted upon her. Sheer ongoing physical and mental torture, topped off by her husband, the man she loved. Where did she “go” during the gangrape and what could this be telling us? Let’s look at a couple of examples of where people “go” when under psychological stress. This is how Jamie deals with witnessing the horror of Rickard Stark’s roasting by Aerys’ command: On a psychological level, to escape the unbearable suffering taking place before his eyes, he opens a door to a private room in his mind and stays there imagining Cersei. Let’s also recall Hodor's mechanism of coping when his body is taken over by Bran: To preserve what remains of his sanity, Hodor goes deep inside himself. I imagine his soul stashed away in a very private place within himself, the better to escape the foreign intrusion upon his mind and body. Of note is that though Tysha’s and Hodor’s experiences differ, they share one prominent commonality: the act of forced penetration. Keep that in mind for later. So, did Tysha try to achieve a level of “privacy” where no one could touch her during her own personal nightmare? We may never know, but this is where the LADIES enters the scene. Since Tyrion’s question is intimately tied to Tysha, be reminded that several other women linked to him have suffered abuse, sexual abuse in most cases. There is Lollys, gangraped, now married to Bron, her child named after him. Tywin suggests Lollys as a wife when Tyrion initially protests against marrying Sansa. According to Shae, her father sexually abused her. And then there is Sansa, now Tyrion’s wife, saved from a gang rape by the Hound at the same time Lollys was being raped during the King’s Landing riots. Now, imagine the Hound had not looked for Sansa, or had arrived too late. Imagine Sansa had shared Lollys’ and Tysha’s fate. Imagine she had still had her direwolf LADY. Where would Sansa have “gone” to escape the horror of the ordeal? Which “privy” would she have sought out? The “ladies” / Lady? I personally think the trauma would have catapulted her soul right into her direwolf. From Bran’s chapters, we know when the souls leaves its “house,” the body left behind is practically lifeless and unresponsive. This suggests the human body may not feel pain. Due to the mingling of man and wolf, the soul may be shielded from the emotional trauma of a terrifying situation. The familiar animal becomes a “private place” or “privy” for its bonded human. Having reached this intermediate conclusion, my next question was: is there any further evidence for this? I think there is. On one level, I think GRRM smuggled a hint to this scenario in the seemingly inconsequential scene involving Sansa trying to coax a frightened Lollys across a drawbridge. A drawbridge can be raised and lowered to allow a crossing or not, as required. Try as she might, Sansa could not convince Lollys to cross it. The bridge represents the crossing of the soul. Symbolically, because of her skinchanger blood, Sansa would be able to lower this “drawbridge” and cross to her direwolf, but Lollys cannot. There is however more relevant suggestive evidence available. The Keyword here is the Hound. Sansa was saved by Sandor the Hound. One other person closely associated with hounds is Ramsay. Ramsay’s hounds, his “girls” are all female, and they are essential to one of his favourite pursuits – hunting young women for sport. When caught, the women are raped and killed. Those that give him good sport get to “come back” as hounds. Like Tysha, also a peasant girl, Ramsay’s victims are raped, probably gang raped and in this case killed. On a symbolic level, the example of Ramsay’s girls could be telling us what I’ve suggested above. Tortured and abused women with the gift of skinchanging leave their bodies, inhabiting their familiar animals to escape the physical and mental terror. They give “good sport,” appearing stoic when they go to their “privy” place. They come back as hounds, literally saved by the Hounds. Tysha going to a “privy place” or secret place where she finds safety also fits with Molestown as her actual location (the laterine references, it’s a brothel), as suggested in previous posts. Tied to all this is Theon’s suffering at the hand of Ramsay. Like the peasant girls, Theon is “turned into a dog.” He lives and sleeps amongst the “girls,” fights them over food. He’s named Reek. He stinks to high heaven. He’s allowed no baths or change of clothes. While in the dungeons, he’s covered in his own filth. He brings us back to the “JOHN.” Before his ordeal began, like the classic “john - client” he enjoyed the local sex-workers and women in general. Under Ramsay, he becomes a “john – privy,” reeks and is covered in filth. Sansa was saved by the Hound. The girls, the hounds, are a bit of a refuge for Theon: The main gist of this post centres around the idea that the question “where do whores go?” may contain hidden references to skinchanging as a refuge, with the “privy,” “ladies” or "john" being that private place of refuge. In another thread, we discussed the possibility of Theon being skinchanged by Bran. If Theon is the “john” here, might he end up as the place of refuge for another skinchanger? Jon perhaps? Or might Tywin meeting his end while occupying the privy suggest skinchanging is does not always offer a safe refuge (I'm also thinking of Thistle here. She or whatever controls her saw Varamyr's soul within his second life after she rose from death)?

Time doesn't permit me to make much of a contribution to topics in the forum at the moment, unfortunately, but I just thought I'd make a small addition to the "toilet" motif here. King's Landing is literally situated on the banks of a symbolic and probably also veritable toilet: The Blackwater. From Wikipedia: Note that we have the Blackwater River as well as Greywater Watch. I've had this info for a while and though I've had unpleasant visions of the contents of Tywin's privy tumbling down into the Blackwater to enrich its contents, my otherwise fertile imagination hasn't quite figured out the possible meaning of all this. Speaking of fertile... @Seams suggested a while ago that Lysa, who was married off also because of her fertility, possibly symbolizes fertilizer (fertile Lysa, love it). When she is "flushed" out the Moon Door, her poor broken body and blood does fertilize the Vale below. Perhaps she can be viewed as a sacrifice to that end. And perhaps this mode of execution is a means to make appropriate sacrifices to the gods that be. We further came to the conlusion that Dany flushed Jorah down the loo when she sent him into the drains to take Meereen from within. Fully agree with your post. In fact, I suspect all that rape represents a forced and unnatural fertilizing of the land and is a symbolic factor contributing to the unnatural seasonal cycle. The idea here is that the "mother goddess," represented by the "whore" or individual woman who is gang raped, is subjected to permanent seeding and growth cycles with no respite. Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely due to soil depletion so perhaps this is where the "Johns" and shit-associated characters come into play. Symbols for providers of manure perhaps? Maybe far-fetched. However, Tywin is said to "shit gold." Now, gold is a symbol of wealth and prosperity. Tywin embodies wealth and prosperity and so indeed does a plentiful food supply and good harvest. If gold is connected to shit/manure/fertilizer, what would the union between the golden rose of Highgarden and golden lion of Lannister have yielded? Consider this from the Queen of Thorns: In this context, there may be more to Jon Arryn and fertiLysa's symbolic relationship than immediately meets the eye. If both represent a fertilizing agent, then it's no surprise Lysa had problems bearing children. So Craster? Craster's Keep is a midden heap. Out of this midden heap grows a Gillyflower. If I recall correctly, Craster wears a heavy gold ring on his wrist. Interestingly, Gilly is named Goldie in the German version of the story. I checked to see if gillyflowers are gold in colour but the term refers to a group of different flowers varying in color. It occured to me that Gilly could also be a hidden reference to "gild / gilded," bringing us round to the gold reference in English as well. That would be another shit/gold pair. A last observation on Tyrion: he not only cleaned up the drains / sewers of Casterly Rock, having sewn his little motley outfit himself on the Shy Maid, he is a "sewer" himself. He'd have been pretty useful as "fertilizer" flushed down the Moon Door! @Sandy Clegg I'm yet to read part II - looking forward to it

Brilliant. Awesome. Great stuff and throroughly good read

If Dany is indeed subject to a "green jinx," then it seems to me Jorah has made a switch already - from green to black. The green background of the Mormont sigil depicts a wood, representing the green forests of Bear Island. He forsook this green place, his House and title, when he escaped Eddard's punishment. He's a lone "black bear" and in my view, absolutely devoted to Dany. His initial betrayal of her though his spying activities occured at the beginning of their journey through the grasslands, when he was still sworn to Viserys and stopped before he swore allegiance to her, accepting her as his Queen. So far, none of the three betrayals proclaimed by the Undying apply to Jorah and will not apply to him in the future, imo. I do not see him betraying her again, ever. Jorah's doomed relationship with his wife Lynesse shows how far he is willing to go for the woman he loves. There is nothing he didn't do in his desperation to make her happy. He bankrupted himself and possibly even his family, sold people into slavery, ruined his reputation, lost his title and brought shame upon family in his quest to keep her. He continued to pine for her even after she left him for another man. We can see this pattern repeating itself with Dany. His devotion to her has religious connotations. In his all-consuming need to regain favour, he even strove to bring his "goddess" an "offering" - Tyrion. Mealwhile he has gone through hell on the journey through Essos, all to get back to her - bound in slavery, savagely beaten, caged and branded. None of this has diminished his ardour. Another hint at Jorah's reluctance to harm the "fair maiden" can be found In the mummer's show that Penny and Tyrion perform. Jorah is in the role of the bear: Further, there's a history of Mormonts and other bear-associated characters acting as protectors. Dacey Mormont was a member of Robb's personal guard, dying with him at the RW. Joer looked out for Jon. Before Jorah was elevated to Dany's Queen's Guard, she and Viserys were rescued and looked after by Willem Darry, otherwise thought of by Dany as her "dear old bear". Arya thought of Yoren as a "black bear." To me, all these signs point to Jorah defending and protecting Dany to the death. And now he's joined the Second Sons and recovered from his ordeal, he's ready to retake his position by her side, for better or worse. From the way he's written, my feeling is he's utterly committed to her, come what may.

Could you elaborate on the above? I can't quite follow your train of thought here regarding the connection between Bael characters and becoming the winner of the Game of Thrones / king of Westeros. I had another thought on the Bael characters. The original Bael, Bael the Bard, said his name was Sygerrick, meaning "deceiver." "Deceiver" can also refer to a trickster or even to a betrayer figure. Rhaegar possibly falls into this category if we view his apparent intention to "retire" his father Aerys as a kind of deception or betrayal. What is more evident is the occupation of Harrenhal by a set of "deceiver, trickster, betrayer" figures since the outbreak of the War of Five Kings. There's Tywin (stemming from the trickster Lann the Clever); Roose Bolton who deceived and betrayed his King, Vargo Hoat - famous for switching allegiances, Janos Slynt and the Gold Cloaks whom Ned thought he had on his side and of course master deceiver Petyr Baelish. Why do we have such a concentration of "deceivers" at this point in time? Does it relate to winning the Iron Throne as you say? Rhaegar failed, Tywin "won," Baelish certainly has designs on the Throne. Perhaps the point is, it takes a master trickster to achieve this feat, but we don't really expect LF to win so what is the purpose of this focus on tricksters? I'm not sure. This prompted me to think about the well known bats of Harrenhal. Apart from the grisly stories surrounding Danelle Lothston which include her sending off bats to prey on children, House Lothston's sigil bore a prominent bat as a symbol. House Whent's sigil depicts nine bats as well. Sansa has at least one bat reference: This "batty" feeling comes up during Joff's wedding to Margary and seems to be a sign of fear as opposed to her previous fluttery feelings of love toward him. So it's interesting that Jamie gives Brienne an Lothston shield along with Oathkeeper for her quest to find Sansa Stark. Granted, Brienne has the shield painted over but perhaps this also tells us something about a possible Sansa claim to Harrenhal through her Whent ancestors. Sansa, Lady of Harrenhal? With Arya being a ghost in Harrenhal and having no fear of the presumed ghosts of Harren and his sons, the many comparisons between Harrenhal and Winterfell, and the "burned hand" that applies to both Harrenhal and Jon, I wonder if a Stark occupation of Harrenhal is the key to perhaps breaking the presumed curse?

Judging by these quotes and the magical properties attritubted to silver and its power to overcome werewolves, it appears silver is a bad omen for Starks. I however propose a different line of logic. It is not what it seems to be. If you take a close look at the North, you will find its prominent symbols closely associated with silver. This includes the Wall and the weirwoods as well as less obvious symbols such as silver clasps etc. particular to the Starks. Somewhere in the text, it is mentioned that the predominant currency in the North is silver as opposed to gold. This is probably because the Lannisters are the main generators of gold in the south, through the mines at Casterly Rock, while such a source appears to be missing in the North. In Westeros, silversmiths are only mentioned at White Harbour. When Lord Manderly talks of minting new coin, he mentions silver being held back by the customs officers, silver that should have been paid to the King in the North: I would argue that rather than silver symbolizing a means to eliminate Starks (or werewolves as the OP portrays it), the silver metal stands in opposition to gold and is a representation of the Stark/Lannister feud. This becomes evident when you consider that much of the misfortune to befall our silver-associated Starks and Tullys (silver trout) has come about on account of Lannister aggression and greed. Golden Lions were behind Bran’s fall from the tower, the attack on Bran’s life thereafter, the attack on Ned and his subsequent execution, the marriage of Sansa to Tyrion, the ravaging of the Riverlands ruled by Tullys of the silver trout, Robb Stark’s assassination, together with his mother and thousands of his Northmen. Ned who wore the silver Hand’s clasp was eventually replaced by Tywin who wore a chain of gold hands and whose golden grandson was responsible for Ned’s death. To me, all this is an indication of clear symbolism pointing to silver versus gold. When Sansa is married to Tyrion, this is what her attire looks like: Sansa is very much the Silver Princess here. Even the direwolf is embroidered in silver. And she is just being married off so that the golden Lannisters can lay claim to Winterfell in the future. Sansa very much highlights the contrast and antagonism between the silver (Starks) and gold (Lannisters). Riverrun of the Silver Trout has been lost to Lannisters as well. As the Silver Queen, Dany falls into the silver-category herself. Her father is killed by a golden lion. Like Sansa, she is married off against her will to a man thought of as barbarous or monstrous. That Silver Dany stands in opposition to gold is also evidenced by the golden Lannister occupation of the Iron Throne. She will also be up against fAegon and the Golden Company. An argument can be made for Robert Baratheon’s association with the gold faction through his banner and marriage to Cersei. Robert swept the Targaryens away and wanted Dany dead. There is also the prophecy about the Gold of Casterly Rock bringing down the Valyrians and silver Dany is the last official true born ancestor of that empire. We are not looking at a case of silver in terms of silver bringing down wargs or the silver-associated. On the contrary, the essence here is a Gold vrs. Silver motif and like the Starks, Dany belongs in the silver faction.

Possibly.. I just came across this, coming from Brienne about Pod: We stumble with our feet ... and here we have a head-foot connection, whatever it's worth That's the only instance of "stumbletongue" in all five books.

Actually, I do believe Arya will play a significant role in the future. All that training you summarized so well in your previous thread must amount to something, or else what is it good for? Probably not just to bump off some inconsequential characters and not necessarily just to complete her list. Nymeria may be a clue to anti-dragon sentiments but I'm not too sure about the FM and Braavos. Dany has just freed thousands of people in Slaver's Bay and may continue on this course in Essos before she reaches Westeros. Slavery has been one of the main concerns of the Braavosi and the FM so why would they want to assassinate her? The question also is, do the FM only act on contract or do they at times pursue their own agenda? If Dany should commit a series of atrocities in Westeros after landing, then it's possible some might want to get rid of her, but I do not see this as Arya's role. Arya could play a role in hampering Dany's war effort though. I'm thinking of Nymeria and her pack amid the Dothraki horse lines. That would put the Dothraki calvary in disarray again and again, rendering them ineffective as a fighting unit. Arya need not even be anywhere near the pack. We've seen her run with and guide Nymeria through her wolf dreams from far away Braavos. I think GRRM is saving Euron for Arya. Aside from the Others, Euron strikes me as the biggest menace and threat to Westeros and someone will have to do him in. With his VS-Armor and the possible acquisition of a VS-Sword plus all that sorcery in the background, I doubt anyone will be a match for him in a normal combat situation. Arya is a stealth assassin. All elements of her training will become super important and relevant if she's to go against a foe as formidable as Euron. ETA: The anti-dragon hints apply to Euron as well. I agree with this but not that she will end up a lady of some powerful lord's household. I think Arya will have become too used to her independence to settle down in the traditional fashion. I don't really see her sailing off around the world either but can imagine her for instance championing the rights of women who feel inclined to depart from traditional female roles. How about creating an institution where martially inclined girls and women can officially learn the skills of warfare, or even to defend themselves? Or founding an institution of learning for women? Though that may be something Tyrion might consider.

Trust you to come up with this This immediately had me thinking of Podrick Payne, known to most as Pod. I've always thought of Pod in terms of a seed pod, especially because of the parallels between Brienne / Pod and Dunk and Egg. The two protegees are like seeds, nurtured and guided by their respective mentors. But this opens a new and further possibility - the pod as in a foot. Dunk chewed on the question of as to why his foot was worth a Prince's life - (Prince Baelor who fought on Dunk's side so that Dunk would have a chance at saving his hand and foot and ending up dead). We don't know for sure if Dunk's question was ever answered but my guess is he saved Rhaella and baby Rhaegar from a fiery death during the tragedy at Summerhall. To accomplish that, he would have needed his feet. Rhaegar of course is key to the story. Pod saved Tyrion from a premature departure from this life and possibly Brienne too, by assisting her at the Whispers. In fact, coupled with @sweetsunray's analysis above, Podrick becomes "King of Feet" Now, I have not had time to return to the text for mentions of feet in connection with Pod but what I do remember is he is so shy that he talks to peoples toes or boots, rather than look them in the face. He also brings Tyrion a walking stick (a stable foot) and supports him initially during Tyrion's recuperation after the Battle of the Blackwater. There may not be anything in this but I find it intriguing to consider Pod in terms of feet as well as seeds. A thought: with skinchanging related to feet, could Pod be able to communicate with the suppressed personality of someone who has been skinchanged by another (talking to boots)?

Aside from six of the Houses Harrenhal was awarded to going extinct and two being dispossessed, it's interesting that two important "Bael characters" are associated with the place: Rhaegar who met Lyanna there during the Tourney of Harrenhal, alledgedly capturing her and hiding her in the Tower of Joy, and Petyr Baelish who "steals" another Stark daughter, Sansa and hides her in a towering castle in the Vale. Probably also important is the fact that for the first time since Aegon's Conquest, the Lord of Harrenhal is also the Lord Paramount of the Trident. The latter position has hitherto been held by House Tully who ruled from their seat at Riverrun. I wonder if this is significant. During a discussion on the symbolism of hands a while ago, @Seams noted that Baelish is now twice associated with symbolic stoney hands: once with the Fingers, from which he hails and from which he acquired his alias, Littlefinger, and now again with Harrenhal whose towers are described as such by Arya: So LF is master of two castles associated with stoney fingers, though one "hand" is burned and the other is not. On the subject of stones - if GRRM based the name Petyr on Peter, then that's another stone reference. Not forgetting Sansa is now Alayne Stone and her mother and one time love of Petyr's life is now Stoneheart. Hmm. I don't claim to have a ready explanation for any of this but it's interesting

This is my favourite. Stoneheart as a "washerwoman" is spot-on, I'm thinking. The Old Mint as the Wall is also convincing. Well done. The Lazy Eel as Asshai - perhaps, but I suggest the whole section on the inn has the Dreadfort written all over it. We've seen hardly anything of the Dreadfort so this coded passage could be telling us more about the place. Like the Lazy Eel, the great hall of the Dreadfort is dim, smoky and black with soot. I think the following sets the stage, intended for us to make the connection: The inn is underneath a warehouse full of sheepskins, bringing to mind the room at the Dreadfort which people imagine contains the flayed skins of the Bolton's enemies. The sheepskins are interesting also because shortly before the killing begins at the Red Wedding, lamb is served. Wyman Manderly is digging into a leg of lamb and later, in Daenerys' vision in the HotU, she sees the man with a wolf's head at the feast of the dead holding a leg of lamb like a sceptre. What really goes on at the Dreadfort is a mystery. Through Theon's Reek POV we gather there are more prisoners in the dungeons. The above may be revealing what went on there in the past, back in the day. With Ramsay reinstating the practice of flaying, and otherwise engaging in hunting and killing women, it would not surprise me if the Boltons captured and tortured women at their castle in days gone by, turning them into whores against their will. Ramsay did marry the old Lady Hornwood and I can't help connecting the oldest whores / Lady Hornwood with the meat pies full of lard and gristle. Cannibalism? What happened to the women of Winterfell who were carried off to the Dreadfort? Do they have to work as whores? It get's even darker when we consider the next reference to the meat pies in this light: Meat pies full of grey meat. Grey is a colour linked to the Starks. It is said the Bolton's flayed and wore the skins of Starks as cloaks. Did they also eat of their flesh? On another level, the Eel and the indigestible meat pies could be a reference to the "bad blood" of Roose and Ramsay. A consultation of the Wiki tells me that eel blood is poisonous and must be prepared to become safe to eat. Poisoned blood = bad blood, fitting well with Roose and Ramsay. Lampreys then would be equivalent to leeches that suck the "bad blood" away. There's a lot we can do with the word "lamprey". Lord Manderly is "Lord Lamprey" because he enjoys eating this type of fish. There's definitely a connection to the Frey Pies as noted already above. I would say the Lamprey eliminates the bad blooded Bolton eels. There's more wordplay here. Wendel Manderly was killed at the Red Wedding while eating a leg of lamb. Symbolically, like Robb and the rest of the Northerners, he was a "lamb" who was preyed upon by the Boltons and Freys. Wyman is a "lamprey" who turns the tables on the enemy. "Lamprey" may also be a hint at "lamp" and "ray," a ray emitting from a lamp - and might tie into what readers expect Stannis' strategy against the Boltons at the Crofter's village will be - with Manderly taking center stage as a symbolic "lamp ray" to overcome the Bolton force. Apples being sold from a barrow. Another angle here would be apples being sold from a grave. The apple was neither fresh nor tasty, Davos considered it a bad apple but the seller wanted the core back because the seeds were good. So, I wonder what that's telling us. I'm thinking of the aFfC POV with Alleras bringing down apples with her bow here and the wormy apple that split in two. Perhaps there's a connection to that.

That might settle the matter, though it's the depiction we expect on a map, any map. We still have many instances where green and green vegetation is associated with the sea or with water; the Dothraki Sea, a grass sea, the Manderly sigil with the merman's green attributes, the Jade Sea, the Haunted Forest beyond the Wall which Jon compares to a storm-tossed deep green sea, to mention a few. Even the green Spring (the season) and spring (the water) is a combination of the two. Perhaps this doubling up of vegetation and the sea/water has to do with two different types of magic that can be ascribed to green. Fertility magic and greenseeing (wordplay - see / sea)? The sheepskin on which the Riverlands are drawn may be a reference to the region as a sacrificial location. This is where the war rages in ernest with so much bloodshed all round. In terms of the backstory and the seasons, the Red Wedding strikes me as a massive sacrifice designed to stave off winter. The God's Eye is here too, a grove of many weirwoods which may require sacrifices from time to time. I actually wonder whether Howland Reed was really a friend to Eddard Stark. As @Phylum of Alexandria pointed out earlier, the Trident is a unifying symbol for the three colours and since these are bodies of water, my guess is the magic represented here is related to fluids. Blood, water and the sap of the trees. A similar concept may apply to the other RGB mentions. The cyvasse terrain colors may represent magic through which physical forces can be applied to the earth. Magic that causes mountains to explode (volcanos), the earth to shake and waters to rise (the so called "hammers"). The Tully "muppets" that are puppets could represent magic related to the supernatural control of the living and undead. The Massey spirals might relate to seasonal cycles or time and the magic associated with disrupting these. I can see the turrets of Trios symbolizing the three dragon heads, though colors are not specified here. There's one more RGB trio we have not addressed specifically as a trio here: the jewels - ruby, emerald and sapphire. I hadn't considered them in terms of a trio originally because they are amongst a number of different jewels mentioned. These however stand out in the story. I think these gems are specific to fire magic and in some cases to soul magic, i.e. the magic of life-force or life-fires) and do not necessarily stand alone but must be combined with another medium of magic, such as blood. These gems are also heavily associated with eyes. I think the author is drawing on the eyes as windows to the soul here. Can't say I've figured it out but what we know of Mel's magic supports the idea. The Ruby: is associated with blood and fire. We get our first hint at Mel's blood and fire magic when she employs leeches to invoke a death curse. Leeches drain the blood from the sacrificial victim and are later thrown into the fire as the curse is pronounced. Waking dragons from stone involves using king's blood / burning the human sacrifice. Dany waking dragons from stone eggs is based on a similar principle. The ruby is involved in glamours where the shade of one person is drawn out of something he or she possessed and "draped" over another to cause an illusion. Her rubies also allow her to bind someone to her, body and soul (these are all aspects of shadowbinding / soul-binding). Emeralds: Cersei is the character most associated with emeralds. It's not clear what kind of magic might be represented here but wildfire is also linked to jade as well as to emeralds and to Cersei, so perhaps there is something there. Wildfire is a product of the magic used by the Alchemists' Guild. It's a green liquid stored in clay pots shaped like fruit. When it burns it's all consuming, will even burn on water. Perhaps the symbolism here is fertility magic, the life force of vegetation gone wild, corrupted. Cersei herself is a "perilous fruit" that threatens to destroy everything around her. Emeralds are most often paired with gold. Cersei consistently wears emeralds which compliment her eyes and golden hair. The green-eyed Lannisters are "golden" all round. Gold and green also charactarize the Tyrells. Interestingly, though they are represented by golden rose, the rose on Joffery's chalice is crafted from emeralds. Then there is Renly: Golden roses with a jade green stag for Renly. So far Renly is the only one with a connection to "soul magic." He "rises from death" as his brother Garlan. Sapphires: these are very interesting because they represent the eyes of the Others and wights and I very much associate them with soul magic and the means by which the Others bind the dead to their service. I think the process is very similar to Mel's ruby-binding magic. There is also Brienne from the Sapphire Isle of Tarth, worth a bag of sapphires. I would relate this to Brienne's life force and point to the Undying feeding on Dany's life force as a parallel. Brienne being worth a bag of sapphires suggests her life force is equal to many times that which can be generated through the magic of sapphires. Dany's dragon eggs are also compared to jewels. Though their colours do not entirely match the RGB trio, they are also part of the soul-magic motif: I look forward to more ideas on "gem magic."

You may be right. It feels like at least 20 sphinxes rolled into one!

A re-animated skeleton is probably not feasible but Ned's missing bones are suspicious and bones are linked to glamouring, so who knows? Someone appearing in the form of Ned is possible, though there's no indication Stoneheart is capable of such a feat and Thoros does not use rubies so far as I remember. I do wonder about Merrett Frey though. He's received a lot of attention for a minor character and has his own POV epilogue. The tale of his branding by Wenda the White Fawn is repeated a few times. Stoneheart personally oversaw his execution, acting as witness to his involvment in the Red Wedding. Does his branding serve some ulterior purpose? Is he earmarked for something to come? It wouldn't surprise me if his story isn't over or if he returns undead to be used by Stoneheart against the Freys.