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Posts posted by WhatAnArtist!

  1. 6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

    I also am more worried about fan discourse than the critical reviews. The critics I believe will largely judge Winds on its own merits. It's parts of the fandom who start acting in obnoxious ways on occasion that I am not especially looking forward to. Though as fandoms go, ASOIAF fans are pretty laid back.

    In my experience, it's critics that are the ones that will trash something based on its ideological/political undertones, not the regular fans. 

  2. 14 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

    It will bring hardships and suffering to the masters and nobles who will lose their place.  They will be forced to labor with their hands and and earn their bread.  So be it. 

    I don't think there's enough work to be had on the Iron Islands for the "masters and nobles" to "labor with their hands". Multiple PoVs have described the Iron Islands as being mostly barren and unfertile land. That's why almost all of the nobles become captains and sail the seas instead.

  3. On 11/14/2021 at 4:16 AM, Firefae said:

    Varys and Robert

    I think Varys wins the prize here. His whole "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" shtick rings very hollow when he's gone out of his way several times to destabilise regimes that were actually ensuring peace and resolving problems. He likes to think he's above petty politics, but he's not. He just cloaks his cheerleading for one side under the guise of some superior morality.

  4. 5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

    GoT didn't have to be the way it was. Hey, let's cut a woman's story and use her body to prop up a psychopath instead. Hey, let's make a woman go bonkers over a man then have him put her down like a mad dog...

    It isn't rocket science to not go there. Even if you made excuses for them, you'd still be left with this: they are crappy plots nobody wanted to see. Anyone could have told them this. Plenty of critics did tell them this.

    Not only did they not read the room, when it was read for them, they just thumbed their noses at everyone.

    I agree that they were poorly written plotlines - D&D were bad writers in general - but I don't agree with your sentiment that writers should write only what fans want to see. That's just fan-service, it's not real storytelling. As soon as a writer refuses to write something because he's scared of how people will respond, he loses integrity and credibility. 

  5. On 11/25/2021 at 2:03 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

    Asha or Theon will be the POV most likely.

    Isn't Theon being kept chained in Stannis's chamber? Might be a bit hard for him to see anything.

    Asha definitely could see it, though, since she's been allowed freedom of movement in the camp.

  6. On 11/25/2021 at 4:50 AM, Rondo said:

    Ben's prospects were few.  Is Ned okay with having to support his brother beneath his roof?  Ned Stark is not rich like Walder Frey.  Supporting Ben would tax his household.  Ben would have kids eventually and they too will be extra mouths to feed.  

    Ned Stark is like.... the last lord that would ever kick out family from his home so long as he was there. 

  7. I think it's mostly just the magic-heavy stuff that he'll be having trouble with. Winds will almost certainly be a far more magic-heavy book than any others in the series, and the supernatural is a realm where Martin hasn't focused thus far, and I think he's probably facing challenges with making it as interesting and nuanced as the political storylines. I'd almost be willing to bet money that he's specifically stuck with the Others, with not wanting to make them cartoonish villains that are uninteresting. 

  8. 5 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

    Interestingly two people close to GRRM have interviews released today where they describe the second half of the show as a distortion, going against the books plans: 

    His agent: https://www.westeros.org/News/Entry/New_Book_Gives_Insights_on_HBOs_Game_of_Thrones

    Outlander author: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/23/outlander-tv-series-author-diana-gabaldon

    One can only imagine just how frustrated and upset Martin himself is, but obviously he's far too professional and tactful to say those things himself. 

  9. 11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

    They didn't have to bring a bunch of Lannisters into the show. But having Daven, Gemma, Emmon and one of the Frey/Lannister boys would've really gone a long way.

    Oh gods, please don't remind me of how they butchered Jaime's Feast storyline. The wound is still too fresh. I waited for years to see his riverlands campaign on-screen, and what we got was..... no.

  10. 22 hours ago, BlackLightning said:


    A lot of the problems in seasons 7 and 8 were actually caused by season 6. Westeros felt so empty and small and rushed in season 7 that an epic, apocalyptic, brutal finale that makes the Red Wedding look like a light dinner was impossible in season 8.

    In general the show always felt a lot emptier and smaller than the world of the books. In a way it's inevitable - it was impossible for the show to cast the literally thousands of side characters mentioned off-hand in the books - but the end result was still disappointing. Martin is perhaps unrivaled in literary history for how effortlessly he makes side characters memorable and distinct even when they barely show up, and it felt like so much wasted potential when D&D cut out 95% of them.

  11. 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

    And I also think Brandon was probably lying about wanting to marry Barbrey and had plenty of other women on the side

    I'd love to see Barbrey's reaction to this knowledge. Just yet another reason for her to seethe about the Starks.

  12. 1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

    They have no chance of stopping you from revealing their dirty secret. You just turn around and run away screaming to everyone who can hear that you just caught Cersei and Jaime going at it. It's not like they can run after you butt naked trying to shut you down. 

    Either they'll be caught outright by curious people looking to verify the story, or they'll be quick enough to get dressed and split. If they manage to get away and deny the accusations then people will still be watching them very closely to see if the allegations are true. 

    If a lowborn servant started shouting out shocking and vile claims about the children of Tywin Lannister, that lowborn servant would find themselves very quickly being brutally tortured or just straight-up executed. You think Tywin would let anyone get away with that? And even if they do manage to tell a lot of people before being seized, you think these other lowborn people would do anything about it? Being in such fear of Tywin's wrath, they'd be silent very quickly, deny it all, and call the servant a liar. 

    This is Tywin Lannister we're talking about, about as far from a kind and merciful lord as you could find. 

    2 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    It's not unusual in and of itself, but it's just example of yet another thing oh so conveniently working out for the Lannisters. But it would be less contrived for Bran to simply be in a coma until the war starts, and then wake up remembering everything when it's too late to matter. 

    Maybe, but that's not the way Martin wanted to write the story, and since there's absolutely nothing unusual about short-term memory loss after traumatic incidences, I don't think it's fair to level any criticism at Martin for this. It's one of least egregious examples of convenience in the entire series. 

    2 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    Would it really have been that difficult to simply have Cersei arrange for Robert to be outright assassinated, or poisoned, or shoved down the stairs, or whatever else that had to be done to kill him without making it look like she won the lottery?

    Any other means of death would seem very suspicious, poisoning especially so considering how recently Jon Arryn died of "unexplained circumstances". And Robert was shadowed by the kingsguard most places he went, so it's not like some random person could just quickly do him in. Cersei didn't yet have the influence to pull off the shady shit she did in later books. The boar incident was very convenient and borderline contrived, yes, but it was also the least suspicious way to kill him, by far.

    I don't know, I think we're just arguing in circles. You think the Lannisters get an unfair level of plot armour and convenience, and I don't - I consider it to be fairly standard for this series. Certainly not bad enough to take issue with over others.

  13. 16 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

    The reason I single the Lannisters out is that they enjoy plot armour above and beyond that which should be given to designated protagonists. 

    Aside from Tyrion surviving a bunch of battles when he almost certainly should not have, I don't think they have all that much plot armour, and if it is there, it feels far more naturally consistent with the story than other examples. To respond to your points about the Lannisters:

    7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    Jaime and Cersei have been not very discrete lovers for decades. They are only ever found out by people that either don't want to rat on them, or by people who get easily shuffled off the board with minimal effort. 

    I don't think this is plot armour, it's just a natural result of them being highborn. They have the power to get rid of non-highborn people that are a nuisance to them, without any repercussions. That's a pretty basic trait of nobles. There isn't really much that can be done about it. Tywin has the ultimate authority in the Lannister family, and unless he saw it directly, he would never allow anyone to take action against his children. And Tywin had a huge case of cognitive dissonance when it came to Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

    7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    Bran stumbles across them in congress, gets thrown out the window and survives, but just conveniently forgets the whole incident because if he didn't then he could have told people and burst the Lannister bubble. 

    It's not unusual for someone to suffer short term memory loss after a severe traumatic injury.

    7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    Tyrion on multiple occasions encounters people who can be easily negotiated with in exchange for vague promises of gold (Bronn, Mountain Clans, ect), who all have an outsized impact on allowing him to survive and come out on top of situations he gets boxed into. 

    I agree that Tyrion weasels his way out of situations where realistically he shouldn't have. I won't defend this one; Martin's admitted favouritism towards Tyrion is very obvious.

    7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's incest, so she kills Robert with the most ridiculous of plans (depending on him to get drunk, to be so drunk that he someone gets injured, to be so injured that he somehow dies, to die quickly enough that he can't receive the truth of the adultery or can't act on it) and it just werks.

    The boar incident is definitely one of the more ridiculous plot contrivances of the series, but there are many examples of similar things throughout the series with other characters. And there are at least some elements of the "plan" that make sense - Robert is a severe alcoholic, he loves to hunt, and because of his weight he's slower than he used to be. Cersei knew all of this, so it's not unreasonable to assume that she could have seen an opportunity here. She got extremely lucky, yes, but Robert was going to die anyway - it needed to happen for the rest of the story to progress. Unlike with Tyrion or Arya, this wasn't a case of Martin using plot contrivances to save one of his favourite characters from certain-death; it was done so the entire rest of the series could continue. It's not the same as Tyrion and Arya constantly surviving battles when physically they should not be able to.

  14. 6 hours ago, The Jingo said:

    I would have written the plot in a way that doesn't give the Lannisters five miles thick of plot armor. The problem with their survival is that there are so many events that roll in their favour that it ends up feeling contrived. 

    Just look at the first book alone. 

    • Jaime and Cersei have been not very discrete lovers for decades. They are only ever found out by people that either don't want to rat on them, or by people who get easily shuffled off the board with minimal effort. 
    • Bran stumbles across them in congress, gets thrown out the window and survives, but just conveniently forgets the whole incident because if he didn't then he could have told people and burst the Lannister bubble. 
    • Tyrion on multiple occasions encounters people who can be easily negotiated with in exchange for vague promises of gold (Bronn, Mountain Clans, ect), who all have an outsized impact on allowing him to survive and come out on top of situations he gets boxed into. 
    • Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's incest, so she kills Robert with the most ridiculous of plans (depending on him to get drunk, to be so drunk that he someone gets injured, to be so injured that he somehow dies, to die quickly enough that he can't receive the truth of the adultery or can't act on it) and it just werks.

    Almost every main character has huge amounts of plot armour, it's not limited to the Lannisters. Arya, Jon and Daenerys are far more egregious examples of ridiculous levels of plot armour. ESPECIALLY Arya. 

  15. 1 hour ago, Thandros said:

    This would leave the Westerlands in the hands of women, distant cousins or Freys if Tywin and Kevan die.

    Assuming that in this timeline Ser Stafford Lannister still dies at Oxcross, that still leaves Ser Devan Lannister to take command in the westerlands. Since he was later made the Warden of the West by Cersei in Feast, it's not far-fetched to imagine that he'd be an acceptable choice to take charge of the westerlands should there be no other Lannisters available. He seemed to do a decent enough job in Feast (though granted at that time the war was all but over). 

  16. 25 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

    But since she's LSH now (not exactly sane fueled by revenge) and the BwB aren't exactly going to be taken at their word, do the general public or at least nobility know?

    I think this is what @WhatAnArtist! means, correct me if i'm wrong

    Yeah that's what I meant. Obviously the Freys get plenty of hate for their involvement in the Red Wedding, and even the Lannisters to a lesser extent, but I was curious about how the Boltons are viewed, and if it's common knowledge that Roose was involved with it. That'd severely hurt his chances of pacifying the North, if that's the case.

  17. 10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:
    1. I would have rather seen the stories get split in half rather than see the characters be split. It was also an incomplete split as characters in Feast had their stories continue and come to a conclusion in Dance whereas the characters exclusive to Dance don't really get the same thing.
    2. I strongly disagree with you on this point. Oberyn dies and is always meant to die. You will need -- at the very least -- Arianne as a POV. Theon is also far removed from the Ironborn story. How is he supposed to cover for Asha and Aeron at the Kingsmoot and in the North with Stannis when he is a prisoner of the Boltons? Theon's story is and always has been about the North.
    3. Not a terrible idea but it's not great writing either. People had a problem with Aegon as it stands. People have a problem with Dorne and the Iron Islands stories even though they are literally a part of the same continent and country as the North, the Riverlands and King's Landing. Having Aegon pop up out of literally nowhere and start wreaking shit would go over very bad. Even if you put Tyrion on a boat headed straight for Meereen, you'd still need chapters written from his POV. He's a major character and a lot happens to him over the course of Dance. His entire personality changes. Plus, we get a better introduction to the Free Cities which will come in handy in the last two books.
    4. What do you do with Brienne? Does she not become a POV? Does Jaime get roped in with Lady Stoneheart by having Brienne just randomly walk up to him and ask him to follow her. That could work but...again, a lot of worldbuilding necessary for the final books is lost. Unless, you just dump it all in Jaime's POV.
    5. Not necessarily. If you put all of the characters and all their stories all in the same book, you don't get both the Battles of Ice and Fire in the same book. There's no way. Unless you want a book that is the same size as the King James Bible.



    I think the problem is that a lot of people read these books solely for the surface-level plot; the twists, the action, the scheming, etc. They don't have much interest in the slow, subtle worldbuilding and character development. But for me it's those last two things that are the sole reasons why this series is so good. It's what makes it rise above just being an edgy grimdark fantasy series where everyone kills each other. Martin didn't just want to make a fantasy version of the War of the Roses, he wanted to create his own world down to the smallest detail, and he wanted to delve deeply into the pysches of his characters. Martin doesn't approach the series with the mindset of "Okay how do I get from this plot point to that plot point in the most direct, no-nonsense way possible?" If he did, his series would suck. It'd just read like a Wikipedia summary rather than actual literature, and literature is not the same as a screenplay; it's not meant to boil itself down to the bare essentials that are relevant for plot progression. A lot of the time, worldbuilding and character development is the entire raison d'etre for literature, and plot is secondary in importance. 

  18. 5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

    Quentyn was terrible in bringing Dany the marriage proposal. since he had only two knights with him there was no presentation of Dorne's power and since Q was awkward there was no way of some good seduction or persuasion

    I just reread the chapter where Dany rejects him, and I really felt bad for Quentyn. I could relate to him somewhat. The fact that Dany even thought how much hotter one of his companions was, and that she wishes he was the prince instead, was both hilarious and pitiable. 

  19. 6 hours ago, SeanF said:

    I could certainly have accepted Dany as a Kim Wexler type figure, someone whose entirely sincere loathing of injustice gradually morphs into a desire to allot reward and punishment as she deems fit, but that would take good writing.

    I'm sure that if Dany does go down a darker path in the books, that's how Martin will handle it. But the whole "sudden snap into madness" thing seems like it'll work more naturally for Jon Connington than Dany. But since super-geniuses D&D decided to leave out that extremely important storyline, they were forced to give certain character developments to other characters (e.g. Jon filling Aegon's shoes to a degree). I'm still convinced that Dany wouldn't have gone full Mad Queen if Aegon and Connington existed in the show.

    But regardless, D&D weren't even capable of writing characters with even a fraction of the nuance of Better Call Saul characters, to name a show that was on at the same time. Game of Thrones was always the sillier and pulpier type of show compared to other heavyweight dramas.

  20. 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

    We don't really need a POV for every battle.  Three of the four battles at the end of AGOT are not experienced through any POV (the Whispering Wood, the Camps, and the battle against the Lhazarene).

    None of those battles were even remotely as important as the Battle of Ice/Winterfell will be. The Battle of Ice will be the Winds of Winter equivalent of the Battle of Blackwater, not the Battle of the Whispering Wood, to make comparisons.

  21. 24 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

    Book Tyrion would have been a much more interesting character for him to play, especially after season 4. In season 4, he had the great trial sequence, which was setting up Tyrion's rage and dark turn... which never happened on the show.

    D&D had a bad habit of whitewashing characters that they liked and didn't want to show in a more negative light. Tyrion is the most extreme example, but there's plenty of others as well. Their personal opinion of the actor/actress playing the character always contributed. They whitewashed Cersei so much because D&D personally liked Lena Heady. 

    D&D were not willing to make fan-favourite characters do bad things, not until the second last episode of the entire series. They did not have the willpower and commitment that showrunners like David Chase and Vince Gilligan did.

  22. 10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

    She ought to have burned Yunkai to the ground

    I don't know if this would have helped much, since Astapor rose up again after she left. What she needed to was conquer it - take the city, kill or expel the slavers, station some Unsullied and sellswords in the city, and add it to her little empire in Slaver's Bay. If all three cities were controlled by her and her soldiers, she'd be in a much better situation. Dany's problem was that she didn't fully commit - she needed to embrace being a Targaryen and emulate Aegon by conquering enough to make her too powerful to dislodge. Simply taking Meereen wasn't enough, she needed all three cities if she wanted to be self-sustaining.

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