BlackLightning

Arya too. Not even Jon is immune to this effect.

A lot of the things that Stannis and Cersei do would make the top 10 list But Stannis and Renly not being able to temporarily join forces against their common enemies is #1. It is still beyond me.

I think the one character that he is talking about is Pycelle.

Agreed that was a huge change However, I don't think that Dany will want to take the Iron Throne for herself at first. I think that her main reason for going to Westeros in ADOS will be because of the Others.

By the time Quentyn's mission becomes known, his death will become known And by that time, Daenerys will be halfway on her way back to Westeros

Someone should show these to GRRM

LOL I didn't say it was amazing. What I'm saying that it was clever.

But ice also represents logic and duty and caution. Jon Snow, Stannis, Selyse, Randyll Tarly, Barbrey Dustin, Doran Martell, Ned and even Sansa are some examples of "icy" characters in the story. So, ice can be good and/or useful too.

It's a testament to GRRM's writing ability to craft a situation in which person A is clearly NOT making fun of person B (person A even goes so far as to publicly and privately explain why they laughed) but that both bystanders and the readership interpret the compete opposite

Maybe King of the North. Certainly of the Iron Throne...it's his birthright. But Jon will be King for a short period of time; not the endgame king. The endgame king will be Bran.

No. Not at all. The North's separation from the other Seven Kingdoms makes zero sense. In fact, within the context of the show, it's both idiotic and extremely harmful. And the Stark dynasty will die as soon as it started. Rickon (I am 90% sure that he will survive the series) will be the Lord of Winterfell and the forefather of all future male-line Stark descendants. Under Rickon's leadership, I think the Starks will go back to their roots as being more like the Free Folk and the Skagosi. That can't happen under Sansa. However, I do see Sansa being Bran's Hand of the King...the first female Hand. Out of all the surviving Starks, she is the most capable and the most prepared to deal with both the lowborn and the highborn.

Good God, what an asshole No wonder Alliser is so bitter...

First of all, Tyrion is not altruistic. With him, strings are always attached. But back to Arya...yes, I can see Arya creating an institution or order for women and girls. Like a BwB type of police force. Her Braavosi connects will likely support such an arrangement. But I think that Arya can do that out of her own castle. Kinda like Lady Smallwood was an ally and sponsor of the BwB. Her lady wife status can be a cover... I feel like Sansa will end up being the single, childfree one...the one more focused on politics.

I see this thread is still going on strong... Listen, the key thing here is that they need each other. But I do, overall, think that Jon needed Dany more at the Wall more than she needed his help in Meereen. The problems that Dany had to deal with in Dance were much bigger issues. I don't think that there was any one person in the series who - if they had access to all of what Dany had at the time - could've really solved those problems. It's going to take a team of people to rectify both the Meereen situation and the larger macrocosmic issue of slavery in Essos. That's why the Dothraki are coming back now and why Jorah, Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, Marwyn, the Tattered Prince, Quaithe and perhaps even Arya and the Faceless Men are all converging on her. The problems that Jon had to deal with in Dance were much more "bite-sized" if you will. Jon's problem was a distinct lack of good PR.

Most of the villains. There's a sliding scale of course...Vargo Hoat and Lysa Arryn are on two completely different ends of the spectrum but they're all on the same spectrum. I also have a very hard time feeling sorry for Stannis and Selyse.

I'm sorry; I should've elaborated Well, they are a bit similar in terms of personality. The main reason Arya is a tomboy is because she negatively compares herself to Sansa and the other girls (but mainly Sansa); she considers Sansa (and by default, her mother) "good" at "being a lady" and knows that she is bad at the ladylike things that Sansa does. So Arya's insecurity and pride leads her to chase more boyish pursuits. Arya would rather chase the unobtainable (she also views boyish pursuits as easier and more exciting) instead of sitting around and looking stupid. Much like Éowyn. Both Éowyn and Arya are infamous for their heroically disobedient behavior. I think Arya will play a big role in both the war with the Others and the Dance of the Dragons. But I think that Arya's experiences in the last book will be both so uniquely traumatic and catharic/transformative/healing that she "retires"from warfare at the end of the tale. A lot like how Éowyn's triumph over the Witch King is a Pyrrhic victory (i.e. she almost dies) Arya will end up "accidentally" becoming a lady (and probably redefining what it means to be a lady) with a respectably powerful lord husband, a household full of lordling children and her own castle to manage. Just like Éowyn set down the sword and shield, gave up on pursuing Aragorn (Aragorn also doubling as symbol of the life of a warrior-queen) and ended up becoming a dutiful lady wife to Faramir. Plus, it makes more sense for the Faceless Men (and by default, the Iron Bank) to want to establish some sort of offshore headquarters in adult Arya's castle with adult Arya's coin. The main thrust of Arya's training is not to become an assassin but some kind of broker and middlewoman. Arya has spent the ENTIRE story looking for unconditional acceptance and appreciation in a pack and a den of her own. Why roam the world when the only thing she ever wanted is right there in Westeros...Nymeria, her siblings, etc. I don't know who the endgame husband for Arya will be but it will certainly not be a Bolton or a Frey. Maybe Ned Dayne or a legitimized Gendry or some other guy. In my opinion, it is Sansa who probably ends the series as a single, childfree woman.

The problem with the Manderlys is not that they are fat, it is that they (especially Lord Wyman) are too fat to be of any use. Which is kinda bad seeing as Westerosi culture is a martial one...particularly for the upper class. Men who are incapable of doing the big muscly, martial things because of the choices that they make (in this case, overeating and under-exercising) are beyond useless; they are a hindrance.

I think Arya is GRRM's version of Eowyn from Lord of the Rings

They ARE her dragons. This isn't a Aemond-Vhagar-Rhaena sitaution. Aemond had just as much right to Vhagar as Rhaena did. But Tyland Lannister, Alys Rivers, the Shepherd or the peasant baker named Joe from down the street DO NOT have the same right to Vhagar as Aemond and Rhaena. Why? Because Aemond and Rhaena are trueborn Targaryens and it is their birthright. Dragons are the property of House Targaryen. If Rhaegal and Viserion were horses, could someone just walk into the stables of the Red Keep, take a horse without permission and not be labelled as a horse thief. And to be honest, trueborn Targaryens don't even have a right to the dragons. Claiming a dragon is not a right, it is privilege...a privilege granted to them by the head of House Targaryen. King Viserys was an exception...everybody got a dragon because he's a big sentimental softie. But King Jaehaerys didn't even allow his younger daughters to claim a dragon when there was no real logical reason for them to be denied a dragon. Not even the infamously passive and ineffective King Aenys allowed all of his children ride dragons whenever they wanted (much less claim them)…a decision that directly caused the problems with Maegor and the Faith Militant to spiral out of control Quentyn was a good dude. And his intentions were surely good (I have to reread those Dance chapters) but Quentyn played with fire and he got burned. Literally. Lmao right. I was just about to say that she could not afford to end her betrothal to Hizdahr. The whole premise of the betrothal was to end terrorism in Meereen. Have you guys not been paying attention to the story? What happened when Robb broke his vow to House Frey by marrying House Westerling? If Dany just dropped everything she was dealing with in order to carry on with Quentyn, they would've all been doomed. Keep in mind that Dany's situation was much more dangerous than Robb's...because Meereen not only had the Sons of the Harpy problem. The Yunkish slaver coalition was closing in and Qarth had essentially blockaded the city. What army of Dorne? Oh, you mean the one guarding the Red Mountains on the other side of the world? Have you heard of the saying "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush?" How is Dany supposed to concern herself with getting the army of Dorne when she has two hostile armies sitting outside of her city and another one lying dormant within her city at the present moment. They don't even have the ships to go to Qarth. How the hell are they supposed to make it to Dorne? I feel really bad about this whole situation. The one who is really at fault here is Prince Doran. Quentyn was not only beyond completely unprepared, he was also not the right man for the job. Oberyn or Arianne would have been more appropriate...and even they need an army of their own. Prince Doran is playing it too safe. All these half-measures are going to be prove to be disastrous.

Okay well that does it... I guess it's time for me to reread A Dance with Dragons. Because I don't remember reading anything about how Quentyn was trying to tame a dragon in order to save the day. I thought he was doing it for DorneTM because he didn't want to go back to his father empty-handed and looking stupid. But trying to tame and take someone else's dragon without their knowledge or consent would be classified as stealing. Wow Does anyone know if GRRM has an annoying nephew or something? Because if so, I think we found him.

No. Nope. Not at all. Daenerys has a much better supporting cast than Jon and it's not even close. Part of the reason why that we know that they are a more developed, interesting supporting cast is because Daenerys actually talks to them. I know, what a revolutionary idea. That's not erratic. The opposite of erratic is consistent and Daenerys has been consistently humanitarian since the back half of A Game of Thrones and consistently anti-slave since A Storm of Swords. Dany's problem is that she is indecisive because she is worrisome. Astapori allies? Lol what Astapori allies did she have to abandon? She left a ruling council to rule...and they would've been fine in time if Cleon hadn't killed them all. I thought all the Astapori (except for the Unsullied, their trainees and the support staff) stayed in Astapor until after the plague had already started ravaging the city. Maybe I've misread. Weren't the slavers outside the city flinging diseased corpses and waste into the city on catapaults?

The problem isn't that Dany is too erratic. Dany's problem is that she worries too much and she is too nice. For the record, I do think that Jon Snow would've done a better job than Dany in Meereen. Not that much better but better enough is better still. But now that you brought it up, let's talk about Jon's decision to send the NW on another great ranging to Hardhome. Was that a good idea? Everyone from Selyse to Melisandre to Bowen Marsh all said it was a terrible idea. Because Dany had a similar situation pop up (i.e. Astapor) and she ultimately refused to get involved.

Maybe I'm reading something wrong then because what I understood from the books was that the Council had the ability to conscript surviving men into an army. And yes, the city would have failed even if she had left a garrison because Cleon (the one guy who is fully responsible) would've slaughtered or mismanaged the garrison to hell and back. The only thing that could've saved Astapor is if Dany left Meereen Yea you're right she didn't do too much. She did quarantine the sick and the exposed away from the healthy and she did bury the dead and deliver food. But I don't really fault her for that because I can't think of anyone in the series who could do a better job than she did. But I don't fault her for leaving on Drogon. She wanted (and tried) to go back.

Guys, I fully believe that we are going to get The Winds of Winter. Now, A Dream of Spring might not happen without there being a co-writer of some kind...but Winds will come. Hopefully GRRM ends this book with no loose ends and the only cliffhanger being that of the Wall being breached What's the problem with that? Sorry but I really am beginning to believe democracy is overrated Not trusting Quentyn actually made perfect sense. Have you forgotten that Quentyn actually tried stealing one of her dragons? What do you think he would've done if he had been successful? And what was she supposed to do when Quentyn showed up? Take her armies and dragons and leave immediately for Westeros? With what ships?! That's why Victarion is going to be treated completely differently. Wait, that guy? If he was a fraud, how could he have sabotaged the S2 scripts? What happened there.

I don't think you can say that Astapor is completely her fault Neither is the dysentery plague How sad is that...