Rose of Red Lake

7 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

That always told me that the Cersei/Euron alliance was a book plot point. There is literally no reason to include Euron in the show if that doesn’t happen. 

Yes, and the book clues back it up. So the tall pale woman laughing next to Euron in Damphair's shade of the evening trip is probably Cersei.

28 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Westeros return was looking bad for Dany since ADwD. She'll bring dothrakis savages and rapists. She'll be the master of eunuchs slaves. She'll bring R'hllor and red priests, against fAegon, engineered to win Westeros religion support, noble, poor and pious all. She'll bring still more slaves and mouths to feed in a time of winter. At least a part of the Iron Born will be with her too, the other slavers and rapists. Maybe the Pale Mare too.

She never had worthy counselors too. Only fools and betrayer. The only one worthy, Jorah, she fired. She started her own path to betrayal with Kraznys mo Nakloz.

It also looked bad for her in Book 1 when Robb was declared King and Dany tries to go to war early on with just the Dothraki. I think she's going to screw herself by trying to expand an empire across two continents. As for Kraznys, he definitely played a deceptive role for readers. She deals less and less with stock one-dimensional villains as the story progresses but people still expect it to work like a typical heroine vs. baddies tale. 

I can't feel sorry for Dany after a certain point. It's more of a twist to make readers sorry they ever wanted her to go to Westeros in the first place. 

“it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window.”

I guess she burns down Dragonstone too.

Agree on that ^ above and also the entire plot centered around the climax Jon killing Dany, because his sisters chose him over her, and Dany was a threat to them. 

7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So you can get Sam, Arya and Sansa out of your head: the loudest detractor against Dany will be Arianne Martell. Especially if Doran or Mellario dies as a result of Dany's war. Oh yes, some of you seem to have forgotten that Arianne's mother is a slaver who lives in Norvo which isn't that far from from the Dothraki Sea.

True but I just got lectured by someone else about how the biggest detractor will be Val...so it seems like everyone wants X character to have this coveted role except Sansa. I think Cersei, could play a role too, otherwise, what was the reason GRRM wanted to have Dany/Cersei in parallel chapters. In fact all of the women seeing through Dany's bullshit on various levels would be amusing. Sansa does have a reason to resist Dany because her storyline is about her autonomy and not trusting anyone except her family, including queens who could have power over her.  

“What will we do tomorrow? What will we do when we are really put to the test? I’m putting all of my characters to the test, to see which ones rise to the occasion and which ones fall.” 

- George R.R. Martin, 2017 (x)

Sansa rose to the occasion by standing against Dany, Dany did not rise in the end. I think Jon failed by thinking he knew Dany when indeed he did not, but he rose to the occasion in the end to do what had to be done. Arya came out of this really well considering where she's at right now in the Mercy chapter - sheesh. I'm so happy she helped people escape from the massacre instead of going after Cersei. Tyrion's line about freeing his brother while Dany slaughtered a city was his best moment (I cheered when he threw the pin on the ground). Theon passed but I really didn't like Bran's line that he was a good person - pure treacle. I also think Arianne will pass the test but the the most vengeful Sand Snakes obviously won't. Jaime ended up being the "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" Byronic hero. He's beyond any test. By what right does the author judge the lion? heh

Arya's ending isn't very hopeful either, because of the track record of all the explorers in F&B who sailed off and caught terrible diseases, disappeared, or died. Queen Nymeria's story is actually more hopeful and inspiring than Arya's. Apparently even Maisie said it didn't make sense to her that Arya just sailed away alone. She couldnt even tell Jon that she would visit??

Also, I'm not being too serious here, but I feel for the Gendry x Arya shippers who were like...what the hell? Gendry is looking so fine and regal in his new get up and Arya rejects him for a cruise? LOL

On 6/3/2019 at 11:13 PM, teej6 said:

I’m so tired of people reducing the book’s sole purpose to subverting/destroying tropes. If that’s all that mattered to Martin, his story would be terrible and would eventually become predictable and meaningless. What he does, and does well, is introduce elements of reality to character tropes. So whether it be the protagonist or the antagonist, we as readers get to hear their thoughts, understand their motivations, fears, and justifications. This makes these characters more real and we can empathize with them more than the standard fantasy hero/villain. As to Ned dying in the first book, this was perhaps a shock to a lot of readers, but if you take the series as a whole, he was never the protagonist. He was the father figure in fantasy/ mythology whose death/ failure is the impetus needed to develop the characters of his kids/ prodigies. His death is required to set the story in motion and to set up the growth in the character arcs of the actual protagonists. And that’s exactly what Martin gave us.

Martin has said on several occasions that he loses interest in a story if he knows the ending and he likes to surprise the reader, but he’s also said his story should flow organically. If all he cared about was subverting tropes and readers expectations, his story wouldn’t be very good and would be rather meaningless. Martin is smart enough to know that hope is a central theme in fantasy/mythical storytelling and he is writing fantasy after all, despite how much people would like to argue otherwise.

Sansa's story, which is by far the tropiest, is completely deconstructed though. 

If her ending affirmed tropes, she would find her prince in some way. The journey getting there would be unexpected though. 

If her ending is completely subverted, she'd realize that she doesn't need a prince at all and would just rule as Elizabeth I. Which the show implied. 

I do hope GRRM plays with the first option. Since her story is so implicated in songs involving Targaryens and dragons (Jenny of Oldstones, the Dance of Dragons, Florian/Jonquil), I do think Jon/Sansa will be a thing, it will just be a secret and a rumor, like Jace/Sara: not known about publicly but readers of the POV will know the truth. But Jon and Dany will be public, maybe the world believes they’re in love, maybe songs will be written about them, but only their POVs tell us the truth (it's not a love story for Jon).

There's not much hope in this ending. I agree that Martin does not deconstruct tropes, he reconstructs them - however, the point of reconstruction is that the process of getting to the trope still makes sense and is delivered realistically. I think this ending, if it is GRRM's, is quite nihilistic, delivered unrealistically, and confirms the worst of the fantasy tropes that the author claims to critique. Most of these fatal flaws in the story center on Jon, Bran, and Tyrion.

- Jon's ending is SUPER SAD and sets the tone of the entire story IMO. Jon is shuttled off to the Night's Watch, disinherited, and returns to a place where Catelyn wanted him to go. So Cat was right, Jon doesn't belong as a member of the Stark family? Also, it's unclear if the NW even serves a purpose anymore. He could just as well help the wildlings as a king or a lord - after all, aren't people supposed to be integrated rather than ostracized (GRRM is very pro-immigration). I dont think Jon actually liked the NW as an institution, and the "band of brothers" ideal went sour once they turned on him. Jon lives by his own code which is usually correct. I thought he needed the freedom to make his own decisions as ruler. Jon being king would be reconstructed Aragorn and would make perfect sense. Instead we get...

- Bran the tree wizard ascends to the throne, because it was "destined" and he "foresaw" it. We have no idea what Bran's tax policy would be, the ruling experience he has amounts to a small scene when he greets Meera and Jojen. He's implicated so much in the magical aspects of Westeros that it would be like a younger Elrond becoming king at the end of LOTR, out of nowhere.

- Jon's character experiences massive injustice at Tyrion's expense. Jon is a kinslayer and killed his lover. Tyrion did the same. Tyrion gets off scott free, gets to do what he enjoys - playing the game and being Hand. Who knows, he may even be heir to Casterly Rock. Gets to father children. Gets to fuck whores, ect. ect. Jon meanwhile is condemned to celibacy even though he wants a son so badly he involuntarily wargs into his wolf (his Stark side).

The only hopeful thing I see in this ending is, Ghost lives. That just isn't enough to feel hopeful, and it completely misses the LOTR catharsis. 

43 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is going to be that different from my ending," says author George R.R. Martin about the HBO series moving beyond his books. See more at https://www.cbsnews.com/game-of-thrones/

 

It is what it is.  The series has been "extremely" faithful.  He says.  

There is also this one 

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I didn’t been to be offensive, and if in using the word “deluded” I offended you, my apologies. I still however stand by my argument that there is absolutely no textual hints to a Jon/Sansa romance. And I’ve seen all the so called evidence provided by the Jonsa fanbase. The Jonsa ship started mainly on the show forum and many old timers on this forum who have been hardcore Sansa fans never subscribed to this theory and still don’t. 

Well they did not predict even a platonic relationship between them which is, as we've seen, important to the plot of the show and the final endgame choices. I'll stick with my jonsa crew because they highlighted these connections. It makes complete sense to have Sansa vs. Dany, and Jon's betrayal of Dany is also foreshadowed. 

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

OMG! keep deluding yourself about Jonsa. As for Dany, people on this site (myself included) saw her turn to dark Dany happening almost a decade ago. No great insight there. In terms of Sansa, I still believe, her show arc is D&D’s fanfic and retcon for all the flak they got for giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline from the books. We’ll just have to wait and see how things will turn out for Sansa in TWOW. 

Using the word deluded is offensive and rude. I'd never call someone that. I've been a reader since 2005 and posting here since 2008 (under a different name). Lots of people were getting Sansa's endgame wrong, thinking she'd be some kind of sex kitten in the Vale, shipping her with abusive older men like Sandor and Tyrion. Which is fine, but it just goes to show that most readers are shippers in some way. Folks just pretend to be above that because of fandom sexism. The story left a lot of good things for Jon and Sansa and I'm excited to see GRRM to have them interact in the books. Jon will kill Dany to save Sansa 's life, and I think the books will be much more explicit about that.

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

And I’ve never been convinced with any of your arguments. Correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t you also a proponent of Jonsa? I guess that theory is out the window now considering the happenings in the show? Or isn’t it? Well, we are not going to agree, so cheers!

My arguments on Sansa and Dany ended up being canon in the show. My arguments on Jonsa did not that's 2 out of 3. Plus, I am happy because Jon chose Sansa over Dany in the show, that neither of them married anyone else, and that they ended geographically close to each other. This leaves a lot of happy headcanons for me. There is foreshadowing for the Stark line to be revived with Bael and the Rose of Winterfell, and Jon fathering a bastard. "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" --> "How many children did Sansa Stark have?"

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Which Nymeria did this?

Sorry, I meant she resisted the Valyrians. Rather than fight them in the battlefield she led her people to safety as refugees. 

25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I can find just as many clues to Arya being queen (if not more) — Arya’s wolf is named after a Queen after all and not just “Lady”. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to argue Arya will end up queen.

Well, Nymeria resisted a Targaryen conqueror and sailed to another continent, so that's probably the foreshadowing for her with her direwolf, and Lady signals her desire to be a lady-in-a-song. With Jon choosing Sansa's life in the end this is very Aemon/Naerys. 

The show and books align for Sansa taking on a bigger role in the North. We've been over this in other threads. I told you LF is already planning on taking her there and setting her up as QitN. 

10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don’t where these loads and loads of foreshadowing for her becoming queen in the books are. I agree she will have a more central role to play and can’t see her ruling the Vale but not the North, not in the books.

As for being Robb’s heir, she isn’t currently in the books. We know that Robb disinherited her in the books. Now could things change in future books, perhaps but as it currently stands she has no claim to the North based on Robb’s will, which was witnessed by many of the Northern lords.  

Robb disinheriting her - you're supposed to see it as wrong because her marriage to Tyrion was coerced and illegitimate. You're not supposed to agree that this character is unsuited to rule the place she desperately wants to return to.  

If you want to look at the foreshadowing just type in "queen" in A Search of Ice and Fire for her chapters. Right off the bat - her direwolf is called Lady but eats as delicately as a queen. LF calls it war of the 3 queens. She never becomes Joffrey's queen and yet everyone is giving her queenly advice and she's observing how power looks from the other side. Hmm... I wonder why.

Sansa is a main character. Her entire story embodies so many of the books themes and she's got an education in playing the game and ruling and she's smart. For all those people who underestimated her, maybe its time to reassess, just like with Bran. She has load and loads of queen foreshadowing.

She moves up as Robb's heir while Bran "died" in the crypts in ACOK. Bran in the show kept saying he'll never be LoW and that's probably a clue.

As much as I dont like it, Aegon V/Aemon was probably foreshadowing for Bran/Jon. Even Bloodraven had a story similar to Jon's, in that he did a controversial, dishonorable thing in King's Landing to protect the crown and got exiled to the Wall. 

I'm interested to see if Bloodraven gives Bran any political training...you would think that would be important in the next several books. But who knows, this could just be Bran as figurehead with GRRM's fav Tyrion getting the happiest ending of them all. 

So glad Mr. Evil Fantasy Trope and his Evil Fantasy Trope Minions are dead.... EARLY. 

Now the we can move on to the #2 threat to Westeros as was originally written in the outline and the more compelling threat, Dany.

 I gave it a 6. Loved the Death mood setting in the battle, but hoped for more human moments. 

No insight on how R+L=J is affecting Jon. No Stark scenes together before they all die (could be a good sign though, indicating they'll live). I really didn't like this.

"The snow fell and the castle rose" in Sansa's chapter is such a beautiful phrase and reminds me of the blue rose of Winterfell. 

“The Sorrows were behind him, half a world away, and the joys of that time as well" - also one of my favorite poetic lines.

8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I've changed "Others" to "darkness", as per the quote used for that passage.

I'm not sure if this is an error or not, but this line in the Azor Ahai needs a citation:

"It is said that wielding Lightbringer once again, Azor Ahai will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him."

"Cold breath of darkness" is not enough to assume that this means the Others.

I'm loving the author's touches here, dragon means war, war means wait.

It would be so interesting if she declared "war"

I cant see the author passing up that irony.

On 1/15/2019 at 6:12 AM, chrisdaw said:

You're a character fan inflating your characters importance. Another one. I'm not making her anything, it is what it is. It is Quentyn's purpose, Dorne's purpose and Arianne's purpose, hence why she's been moved to be embedded with team Aegon as soon as they've landed. She's not a parallel with Sansa, she exists to contrast her eventual failures with Sansa's successes, that's why her screen time is comparatively minor and she's the match for Johnny come lately instead of one of the big three.

On character inflation: you seem to be inflating Aegon's importance. He's not a POV character, or the key to a kingdom. The Targaryens can't win without Arianne. 

Of course Arianne has a growth arc - she thinks about what she's learned in her own POV. The lesson she learned was exactly the same as Sansa's: don't trust attractive men. Darkstar=Joffrey.

I really don't see her as just a score for Aegon. I think she exists to ratchet up the conflict between the characters she's going to meet, not make things smoother for him. 

Two POVs in the same storyline is only interesting if they come into conflict. Having them see eye-to-eye is boring and not GRRM's way. 

And characters can be both foils and parallels at the same time.

Here's the biggest tell for me:

Quote

 

“Marching where?” Ser Daemon ask.“Not for us to say,” said Mudd. “Chain, hold your tongue.”Chain gave a snort. “She’s Dorne. Why shouldn’t she know? Come down to join us, ain’t she?

That has yet to be determined, thought Arianne Martell, but she felt it best not to press the matter.

 

I doubt Sellsword Extra #13 is giving away the plot here. Putting these assumptions in the mouths of characters like this is a sign it won’t play out as they anticipate.

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

but the pretender is what her story is about

You're making her stupider.