It_spelt_Magalhaes

The truth of events, or at least the perspective of the characters themselves in their pov will absolutely count for sh*t once tongues start wagging.

Like it's repeatedly been pointed out in various tones and with a multitude of intents? Dany was screwed once she got them dragons. 

Everyone wants her gone. Even the Red Priests and their following would have the individual gone and trade it for their symbol and icon.

And whatever she does from that point onwards is only going to be twisted in the telling, despite however good, bad, or stupid it might be.

Damn her intentions or ambitions. By the time she sets foot on Westeros, she could be handing out lollies and preaching world peace (let alone in a conquest campaign armed with dragons and dothraki), she'll be seen as the absolute worst of all that westerosi can throw at her.

Squandering potential allies before she even meets them out of stupidity, inexperience or plain out because she is a Targaryen with Dragons TM?

Arianne Martell was always going to be bffs with the 'pretty new girl' who cost her a shot at the throne. Or Dorne. More than once. Right.

Meanwhile, Tyrion 'Don't Look at Me I'm Just Here for the Game' Lannister will joyously cast his shadow spinning the runour mill. 

9 hours ago, Br16 said:

Donovan in Indiana Jones Last Crusade.

Holy! I feel old.

Also? 'He chose... poorly.' after Donovan was all 'eternal life'? Awesomest line. 

32 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

• fTyrion: who has a better story than Bran the Broken?

• Braavosi crowd: BWA AH AH AH AH (hats thrown in the air, crude jokes etc.)

Wait...

(Recalls watching final episode)

Oh!

3 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Makes me think that I'd LOVE to see Izembaro's theater troupe playing the last episodes!

Just add poop and farts to the tits and cocks. That wig art, tho...

Hey! That'd be awesome!

5 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

But Winter is coming, my Lord! The snows will last through the Long Night and so their duct tape with it.

Wellp, once you base stuff on the popularly named 'mummers version'? 

Don't you mean the Short Night?

Muahahah. I'm melting!!

Ah dun wan eht.

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Great Snakes!

Good thing I checked out of Star Wars some time back. Sounds like they don't even need D&D to blow it up any more.

Ditto. And a special ew to the P in the earlier equation.

@Lollygag

Thank you.

Lets all give a slow!clap to show!Catelyn Stark and her 'how to raise your husband's nephew who you believe to be his bastard' 101, used to great effect to newter iniciative and ambition and create a submissive, unable to commit moron.

I really disliked what they did to Jon, if you couldn't tell by now.

14 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Maybe Jon's father is the same as Anakin's.

That is really going to ruin all the fancy algebra on this thread 

Vade retro!

Speaketh not of the midichlorians! 

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

To be fair, she used the proceeds from Casterly Rock to pay the IB in full, so the only debt was hiring the Golden Company. All in all, the Crown debt is probably not that large.

Being an a-hole is banking one-oh-one.

Imagine that credit interview:

'so, what are your available assets in case of default?'

 'I have a good story'.

Yeah...

9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The show made it seem like Bloodraven just migrated to Bran when the Others took his mortal body. This is super-reminiscent of  like how in Gene Wolfe’s Citadel of the Autarch, our protagonist took up all the old autarchs’ collective memories at the previous autarch’s death when Severian [spoiler suppressed].  (Martin really likes Wolfe, BTW.)

That's why the autarch was sometimes addressed as Legion, for in him are multitudes, all the living collective memory of those who had held the station before him, with the previous autarch's memories foremost in his mind after he own memories but hardly alone.

So too with Bran. That's why Bran is the only one there who has the actual experience to be king. For one thing, Bloodraven has a lot of direct experience ruling Westeros, but for another Bran has access to earlier memories and earlier history beyond just Bloodraven's own memories. Think about Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Tower of Joy.

That's why Bran told Tyrion about where he got the wheelchair design from. That wasn't a random throwaway line, not this late in the game. It was to prime Tyron so that when he thought about who should rule, he would think of Bran and why Bran had that experience from days long past.

Oh! Horror level thought here!

Imagine the last bit of Bran's identity and individuality locked behind a WallTM designed to facilitate and guarantee his transition into the collective. He resists, out of his emotional pack based notion of self, so even as he seees the actions of the 3ED as necessary for the future to become? He watches, with enough remaining empathy, but completely without agency, as the entity he now embodies uses his family, his people and his world like disposable chess pieces.

Masterful.

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I think he was just walking his dog. He's the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and has to supervise his two (count 'em) subordinates. He's gotta keep the kingdom safe from .....from ...... well there's a lot of maintenance to be done.

Snarks and grumpkins, was it?

7 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

One thing I expect to see in the books based on what happened in the show is that despite having been initially pitched as a generational saga, virtually no one is going to die of old age.

Only a single character out of the show's nearly fifty main cast died of old age, so I'm not expecting many more to do so in the books.

Seems odd for a generational saga.

Maybe it's yet another way to hammer in the cost of war?

The lack of interaction with the elders causes a vacuum where oral traditions are not passed on, knowledge and crafts forgotten.

11 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There are speculations like this one: Why did Bran become king?  That Bran E3R manipulated events so he became king. Very clever, depressing.

I don't think BR design was so dark, wanting to be king like everyone else. But I could imagine they manipulated people like dumb sheep, to lead them where they should be. But even if so, IMO they would remain behind the scene. With a more charismatic person at the front. A leader, a shepherd, but not a king. They too often forget they are to serve, not to be slave masters.

 

I think we're meant to look at it as a 'fixed universe' thing? It was always going to happen.

'The ink is dry."

Everyone who tried to mess with prophecy only made sure it actually happened due to their interference in trying to stop it.

Remember the witch who killed Daenerys' baby in her womb to stop the 'Stallion who mounts the world' and the tragedies to follow?

She made it possible for Daenerys to have dragons.

And if the 3ER acts like in the council scene? He'll take care of higher matters, the council addresses the state. 

34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, in the cave. His identity mingled with the other greenseers. But not before a very long time.

Even in the show he said he wasn't Bran anymore, so even if/when he leaves? He won't be Ned Stark's son who liked to climb, who dreamed of being a knight.

Kill the boy and make way for the man.

The boy dreamed, the man serves.

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Only death (or great sacrifice) can pay for life (or exceptional power over life and death). But the cave isn't the only possible payment. Bran dreamed of being a knight, he loved climbing and adventure, and Ned said he'll never sleep with a woman or be able to father children

Bran won’t even be Bran anymore, imo.

Loss of identity is a death of sorts. Loss of humanity, even. Valar morghulis.

And in trade his will be a life of service, as the 3er, however long it lasts. Valar dohaeris.

I think he pays dearly enough indeed.

Avoided it as if it were a boat shock full of Yersinia pestis infected rats.

But I'd like it if you could share main points of the 'genius'.

3 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

But I think this is about life and humanity. You could say ASOIAF is realistic in depicting the unpredictability of life and the strengths and weaknesses of humanity and its struggles.  The futility of the pursuit of power, and the hubris of entitlement. The fallacy of nobility and honor, and the power of sacrifice and the price sacrifice brings.

GRRM: "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about

Also, consider the magic, gods and supernatural thing as the perfect stressor. Planetos is an ant farm, and a huge rock (comet, wtv) just dropped smack on the middle.

Now you have an unprecedented occurrence, hells, all they have are faded legends from the Age of Heroes leftover in nursery rhymes, horror tales and words that for most have lost meaning. Legends of powers that, to quote from Supernatural, could mash them like peas.

Even if the endgame is a Lotr like resolution of only minor magics remain? It's about the journey, not the destination. What matters, what makes the story worthwhile, are the characters' decisions, feelings in the face of the unimaginable.

1 minute ago, Ruki88 said:

But I think this is about life and humanity. You could say ASOIAF is realistic in depicting the unpredictability of life and the strengths and weaknesses of humanity and its struggles.  The futility of the pursuit of power, and the hubris of entitlement. The fallacy of nobility and honor, and the power of sacrifice and the price sacrifice brings.

GRRM: "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about"

 

And the final lesson we are to take at the end is that humanity needs a God Emperor to steer us in the right direction? I mean, I see Bran being a driving force in the battle against the supernatural for sure, but ending up king…It’s just so…reductive.  Bran has a role in the magical conflict of the story (and its solution), not the ‘mundane’ conflict of the story (and its solution).

What about “Aragorn’s tax policy”? What does "ruling wisely" means in this world? Apparently humanity is not good enough, it needs a magical being to do it for them.

I don’t know. I don’t agree with the message here. This is how I see it and I just can’t agree. I don’t want a higher power/God like figure ruling over me/humanity – must be the atheist in me :P.

 

We're just shooting the breeze here.

The 'lesson' about power and how it corrupts means only not using it is a safe path. Having King Bran present but only to handle matters that relate to magic and natural balance, leaving the council to deal with human matters, could be endgame. He went off to 'look' into the Drogon situation and left the joke council to figure shit out?

I'm with you on the skeevyness of looking at this in a 'we're too stupid to rule ourselves' way. A one-man intelligence agency, potentially with more knowledge than all the Citadel, and king all at once, yikes.

I kept seeing the Maesters as really hardass, coldblooded defenders of the anti-magic thing. Even Marwyn (?) can't remember the exact spelling, looked like a 'nature of the beast' resource. My pet conspiracy is they not only did they have a very set role on the extinction of dragons but also helped along what consanguinity was already doing to the Targaryens. Multiple stillborns, madness, frailness, the works.

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

settle down to be nice fishermen

Like the dothraki will be horse traders?

2 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

I think after the show ppl are kinda over this subverting shit.

That'd be because instead of a scalpel, they used a hacksaw.

Imo, it's perfectly in keeping with the content so far. GRRM, as the greatest troll who ever trolled, had magic slowly creep over human stories, until we have a mass conflict.

Conflict about human reaction to a somewhat balanced existence getting fucked over by the ressurgence of magic.

Then you start to discuss magic, root for magic and the fantastic to go on. But this was always a humanized version of Lotr. Magic is meant to end. The cycle must resume. 

Winter followed by Spring, the end of a forest fire followed by renewal, new life as the ages progress.

If Bran, as a greenseer, can be the memory of the world, his job is to maintain the cycle, to make sure the wheel keeps turning. His conquering can be seen as saving the world from active magical forces that would destroy that natural order.

To stop the Long Night, all the other Gods and magics will be necessary. To keep the wheel turning, Daenerys must be stopped and the dragons return to legend.

The show fails because they tried too hard to get rid of magic earlier on. We're left without that subtext when the time for magic is done and only simple, prosaic human affairs are left.

The final subversion is that, while a fantasy story, human values, and flaws, prevail over the fantastic.

The age of Men begins and only simpler, cruder magics are left in the hidden places of the world.

Until the comet returns and wheel turns again?

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

They spoke of the endings lining up but the paths differing

Thank you. Someone, I can’t remember who, pulled the 'one of the D's was involved in Troy' out of the box of 'ew'. Once you consider that, Martin is completely safe to finish the books as per the endgames.

I like the mashup of: Your theory about the KG regaining their original purpose as the proverbial 'line' the King will not cross. The sword that will stop the power of the Iron Throne. And then you add the 'Bran as God Emperor'. The Kingsguard would be his tether and his limitation, tasked with guarding his life and his integrity.

But maybe I'm just sliding too far out. 

4 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

We know nothing, re Jon Snow 

 

Having thought it through since the series ended, I'm fairly confident what happened was this:

4 years ago GRRM told D&D the basics of the endgame. We just saw it. Unfortunately, owing to a critical lack of writing talent, D&D couldn't show us HOW the plot builds up to the climax and how the characters get there in any convincing way. So we don't really know the whys and wherefores of anything in tWOW and aDoS. D&D lucked out in guessing R+L=J but not why or how that's in any way relevant to the story. The knew the Others get defeated up North, Cercei dies in the rubble of KL and Dany gets to touch the IR before being killed by Jon due to her megalomania. And the tree becomes king because he's got stories. And that's about it. Filling in the rather extensive gaps will be a pleasurable experience when we finally get our mitts on the books.

Not a direct quote, but someone on the forum stated one of the D's was involved in Troy?

Same situation, the plotpoints are there, at least some of them, but the rest of it?

Well, Helen and Paris shacked up, there was a war, a wooden horse, Troy fell, Brad Pitt in a skirt was shot in the ankle?

Thumbs up.

26 minutes ago, CCRArabians said:

Thank you for posting this. Thanks to everyone who has posted memes and YouTube rants. It's been very cathartic and helpful getting over my WTF!!!!! GOT PTSD.   I had to pause it twice to let my psychotic giggling die down so I could hear the video. 

So first I nagged at my family, then I somehow ended up on Maisie Williams' twitter account and found the cornucopia of GoT memes.

It was therapeutical.