EggBlue

yes , that was Jon at 14(though the general consensus in the book is that he's wiser than his age) before his character development. this was Aegon at 18 before his character development. I don't see much difference in that regard. the situations are indeed comparable. you shouldn't look at it as "oh , well he suggested that Dany might not be submissive" ... NO . as much as Jon's "brothers" and his bastardy is a huge deal for Jon, Aegon's sole purpose in life is important to him. Tyrion didn't just point out that his plans may not succeed. he shattered the boy's bubble completely. Tyrion questioned his identity which is honestly a big deal . not because of inheritance stuff but because of how would you feel if someone comes along and questions everything you know about yourself . then he questioned Dany's willingness to help him which from his answer we know he expects her help because they are kin (his only kin from Targ side at that) , not that it is her duty or that he'd be an amazing king . then T questions his abilities and why anyone should join his cause. then he questions Jon Con (basically his dad) and everyone else's loyalty and questions the success of a purpose he was preparing for his whole life. he also tells him of his dead father's overboldness and what not. then he tells him he needs to prove himself to the nobles which like it or not works exactly the way Aegon approached it . yeah , it would have been different if Westeros was in a time of peace but it is not at the point Aegon decides to attack. this was surely a well-aimed, well-executed manipulation on Tyrion's part with heavy implications for Aegon. would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better.

I don't think the guy's the perfect king like Varys likes to believe either . but that is not to say Tyrion's assessment of him is correct . in book 1 , Tyrion did the exact same thing to Jon on their way up to Wall and Jon had Ghost terrorized Tyrion for it. sure, Tyrion didn't compare Jon to Joffrey then. but if we compare the two instances with Aegon and Jon, save for Tyrion's position in the whole thing they are exactly the same. two princes showing exactly the same behavior towards a certain (physically) underdog when faced with terrible truths. only Tyrion sees himself in Jon as a bastard, is generally in a better mood and genuinely wants to help Jon see the truth. with Aegon, he downright tries to make him angry and manipulate him, he himself is in a bad place and doesn't see anything of himself in Aegon . so naturally he thinks about the other prince he knew.

Unfortunately, I think Aegon is up for a tragic end (probably at the lowest point of the Dream of Spring) too. whether there will be a Dance or not , I do not know ( a boring affair with only 3 dragons), but I doubt he'll survive this series. we can already be sure that another tragedy is waiting for him in tWoW . his father figure has a terrible disease and will go mad. he might have to kill JonCon after a Bells episode or support him and lose all of his kingdoms and popularity... like another Aegon I would say RE his competence, I don't know. but he's definitely a good kid, well-behaved, generally nice, appreciates competence instead of bloodlines (as appointing Duck as his kingsgaurd shows), albeit a bit arrogant (I'd say not more arrogant or naive than Robb and Jon at the beginning of the series) and shows a hint of sexism in his Golden Company speech (as it is Westerosi way)

run to the Summer Isles

we cannot be sure of the Kingsgaurds' purpose even before Rhaegar's death. Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and Oswell was most likely Rhaegar's man as well . but the White Bull was loyal to the king to the bitter end, remember? and Aerys had named Viserys his heir even when both of Rhaegar's unquestionably legitimate children lived. so , it can't be about that. and besides, Aerys dies about 2 weeks after Rhaegar if I remember correctly. the Kingsgaurd are located in a secret remote spot. for all we know they had received all the news at the same time , not long before Ned's arruval.

everyone is so serious about the threat of the Others in Britain!

guys , you're forgetting something(s) here : a) at that point Jon wasn't born and thus there was no way to know if the baby is a girl (after Viserys in line of succession) or a boy (before Viserys given we assume that R&L were indeed married) ... b) whether Jon is a bastard or not , he'd be a member of royal family if Rhaegar recognizes him and I guess nothing shouts "this kid is mine" more than abducting(running away with) a woman and keeping her in a love(sex) tower. ... I have my own issues with the Kingsgaurds' presence (and almost half of the order at that?!) and I have come up with some theories of my own. But because of the reasons stated above, I tend to think it's not about a matter of succession if it's about unborn Jon. the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys . thanks to Jaimie who still feels ashamed and guilty for failing Rhaegar's family despite his order to protect them , we can know that the Kingsgaurd don't just abandon their mission because of the royal's death(unless they are Jaimie)

wow

sorry to disappoint but Fire and Blood is just an expansion of a part of World Book + Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince ... so, not that many new materials there. and of course, this last Targ book is just a summary of fire and blood with pretty pictures. I'd say all the credit for that one should go to the artists rather than GRRM!

I hate that theory. I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not! first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!

there are so many things I dread to read in tWoW and yet, I think are quite plausible... 1. Shireen burning 2. Tommen and Myrcella's deaths will be sad either way but I'd especially hate it if it's by the Sand Snakes 3. Aegon revealing to be a Blackfyre... frankly, I don't like this theory currently! I used to like it but not anymore! 4. Cersei surviving ... can't bare the woman ... hopefully the Valanquer will take her down in the winds 5. Jon Connington burning down himself and Kingslanding with it , meanwhile damaging Aegon's cause terribly. a catastrophe sounded inevitable from the very first time I read Jon Con's chapter and the show's Bells only make it too damn obvious. but the man's life is so f***ing tragic, I hate to read that happen. then, there are some things I'd be seriously disappointed if I don't see happen in the Winds: 1. Dany must come to Westeros finally 2. there should be more Bran chapters, more Others related stuff and I'd be genuinely pissed if Winds doesn't dive into magical stuff 3. I also want to finally get the answer to Jon's crypt dreams . and No, I do not think it's [only] about his parentage all in all , this book has a lot to answer and wrap up before the last book and has to seriously make up for the long long wait .

obviously ... Jon is Craster's son, so Lyanna after feeling all the guilt knowing her family and her savior(aka. Rhaegar Targaryen) had died wished to die on her bed of blood... only... she didn't! she was reunited with her secret crush, Howland Reed, took a new name and extracted two promises from Ned: a/leave her alone b/take away Craster's demon child away...... it all makes so much sense!!

I know! right?! honestly, if there wasn't the logical reason that Howland would raise his son on his own, I would have loved this theory so much, because it would be the exact subversion of "the knight getting the girl after defending her honor" trope! cute!

me too! it's such a shame that most likely even the ages do not fit! not much... well not any that shows connections between L and A , but another theory that I personally just like so much! BECAUSE imagine Jon leads the battle for the Dawn with Dawn in hand.... cool, ha?! yep! this is known....

you make us seem like Rhaegar! this was interesting... I should re-read...

yeah ! and might I add it's pretty hypocritical?! like, let's praise Targaryens for incest but the Starks are filthy monsters for incest?!

I mean, yeah, I agree that Jon is a bastard no matter who his parents are (Not Ned I presume!), so what?!... no matter whether he'll be the Last Hero of the series or the Night's King or both (like I suspect), it does not matter whether his parents had sex in or out of wedlock! I've heard some fans say Jon should be revealed to be a legitimate son because he has so much trouble with his bastardy. no matter the parentage, Jon is Ned's son and any secret that's revealed will only matter for the character in light of his relationship with Ned. Jon has issues with his bastardy due to his relationship with Ned. now if it's revealed that Ned is actually his uncle who hasn't talked to him about his mother/father for perfectly good reasons and that he has sacrificed his honor and risked his marriage just to keep Jon safe, then Jon's issues with his "father" will eventually be pretty much resolved.

probably the same dreams Aerion had. they both liked wildfyre and they both thought they'll turn into dragons!

you do know Hothar threads have a tendency to get blocked. right?!

from what we know of pre-conquest Targs, the eldest brother married the eldest sister. it is not clear how the power structure within the island and Targaryen household worked. considering Aegon's shared rule with his sisters despite adapting Andal customs, it's quite reasonable to think the lord and lady of Dragonstone shared power equally. it's most likely that the nobles in the mainland saw the lord as the real power due to the projection of their own culture . we've seen the same thing in book 1 when Joffrey Baratheon calls for Doran and his eldest son to swear fealty despite the fact that according to AGOT's appendix Arianne was Doran's heir. this again goes back to the Arianne example. of course, he does. but as Many-Faced Votary said, passing over Rhaena and Aera was a unique situation. besides, Rogar Baratheon's influence on Jaeherys's coronation should not be dismissed. Rogar , as he later showed, wanted his own monarch. obviously, the boy he had under his roof was the better candidate than a woman he did not know or a child he did not have access to. seems to me Jaeherys' gender only became an asset for Rogar to satisfy Andal nobles and do what was best for him. of course it was. they were Andals , Baelon was an adult and he was popular. that is not to say Jaeherys couldn't just as easily name Rhaenys his heir . she would have been accepted because there was no precedent against her position ( instead of Aera who again was in a unique situation) . also, having Corlys, another adult popular and powerful man, by her side and the Baratheon support would have helped her position better . yes, but it's not about what Alyssane preferred. it's about what Jaeherys and Alyssane could pull off. Jaeherys and Alyssane seem to be one of the more Westerosi-conventional Targaryens (unless it comes to incest!) . and one would assume living in Baratehon household between the ages of 10-14 (for Alyssane , 8-12) without any influence from Targaryens could be an explanation. notably, although Rhaena doesn't seem to like Queenship and whatever it entails, she is still the one to believe she or at least her daughter should have been queen instead of Jaeherys ; and she is the only one among her siblings who was raised by Aegon and Aenys.

and that's ta plot for one of those thriller movies!

there is always the chance that other branches challenge the succession, especially in this sexist society. but the difference is there wouldn't have been a precedent for passing over women in favor of uncles, so that way Rhaenys's reign would have been far better accepted rather than, say, Rhaenyra's or if Rhaenys was chosen in 101.

that's very kind of you! I'm hoping we can settle these... disagreements for a while!

oh . sorry about that. I was distracted by Hot Pie sin thread and missed Jaimie's! yeah . well , respond to each other here!

aaaah ... that is so sweet and tragic. poor Bobby. I'll shed a tear or two for him right after I'm done mourning Janos the Saint.