SeanF

Jon, like Daenerys, is prepared to use torture. He puts men in ice cells (and those men are undoubtedly arseholes), where they go insane. He burns Gilly, a rape victim, in order to force her to surrender her child. The Nights Watch as an institution inflicts torture on captives. He takes children as hostages and threatens to kill them (and comments internally, that he would kill them if he had to), In the case of Daenerys, such acts would brand her as Sauron. Jon, like Dany, takes the decisions that leaders take, in this world. Jon is trying to save people from the Others and the Boltons (combined with a desire for revenge on those who harmed his family). Dany is trying to save people from enslavement (combined with a desire for revenge on those who harmed her family). Morally speaking, I see little difference between the two of them.

What I like about Osten Ard is one can still sympathise with the Norns, even though they are antagonists. Even among their number, there are those who are sick of endless war against humans I think Martin’s views on what women find desirable are …a bit odd. He sees Dany/Drogo as a deep romance. I see it as a barely pubescent girl persuading herself she’s in love with her master, as an alternative to killing herself. The idea of a 13 year old being taught to perform “bed tricks” is horrid. So, I think we’re meant to see Daario as being dashing and attractive, even if he is violent. Like Darkstar, and Khal Drogo. I think Martin views Daenerys' love life as being a tale of a young woman becoming confident with her sexuality. And yet, I think there's something of a whipped dog about her. I could imagine her persuading herself that a man who abused her was just showing her how much he loves her (something i've encountered in real life, even among successful professionals). All the more so, in a world where even royal women are taught that they are inferior to their menfolk.

I find Daario a bit of a jerk, (I'm not sure if the author intended that) but I'm not sure if he's a devil. His advice is harsh, but pragmatic. With Tyrion, there's real malice. I think Jhaqo and his riders (and Mago) will burn. I don't expect her to burn the khals, but rather to bargain with them. And, there's an obvious bargain to be struck. Military aid, in return for the lands and possessions of the slaver elite in Western Essos. The slaves will be freed, which can be sold to the Dothraki in pragmatic terms. 75-85% of the population of the Free Cities are slaves. They're a huge fifth column, who can be turned against their masters. For the Dothraki, it's a chance to grow rich on an unheard of scale, as the new ruling class of Essos. Martin borrows hugely from Tad Williams' Osten Ard stories. The Others are almost identical to the Norns in those stories. Pale, very beautiful, adored by some humans who serve them willingly, able to raise the dead as their slaves, but in the main, very dangerous to humanity. They keep thousands of humans as slaves, raping them to produce mixed-race soldiers (pretty much what Saruman was doing at Isengard) . Their society is seriously messed up - but they do also have very real grievances against humans as well. They are extremely long-lived, so for them, the wrongs they have suffered at human hands are very much present wrongs. For humans, it's all ancient history. They're antagonists, but at the same time, they do have reasons for their antagonism. I'd say that the Others do wish to extinguish humanity, and from their point of view, they have good reasons for doing so. However, humans will disagree with that.

It remains to seen, who is the better leader. Dany’s story is not finished, and neither, I suspect, is Jon’s.

I love the way he sheds manly tears while beating his wife to death, and feeding her body to the crabs. I mean he had no choice, did he? He’s a sensitive soul at heart.

I find book Tyrion to be like Harry Flashman. A monster, but still a great read. Stannis, yes, was another mess. I’ve never thought of him as The Mannis, but there’s a lot more to him than being a ambitious villain (in reality, he’s somewhere between hero and villain.)

I think the two Ds’ have such a skewed moral compass, they may not have realised how unattractive they were making the characters. Book Tyrion is a piece of work, but he’s still a great character. Show Tyrion was objectively evil (he was the enabler for a murderous government, and worked to keep a psychopathic usurper in power. He only broke with them when they turned on him. Even at the end, he was prepared to starve Kings Landing to death. Then he kicked Jon to the kerb, after persuading him to do his wet work for him, in order to save his own neck.) But at the same time, he was thoroughly sanctimonious, incompetent, yet failed upwards endlessly. I view him in the same light as Albert Speer. A horrid man, who persuaded others that he was righteous. Much as I like Dany, I accept that he’ll probably be her evil genius, in the books. He’ll be urging her to act like his father. He’ll be insisting that “it’s better to be feared than to be loved”, and “mercy is just another word for cowardice.” And, I do expect her path to the throne to be a brutal one, ( I don’t expect her to deliberately burn the capital, but I could envisage terrible street fighting between her forces and her enemies, with both sides murdering and raping civilians) as against which, I think she’ll play a major role in the battle against the Others. So, I think her legacy will be more good than bad. i don’t think anyone in this tale is wholly good. There are people in it who are completely vile, but the sympathetic characters are shades of grey.

I like Dany, but so often, less is more. Dany only has six chapters in ASOS but they’re great. Her first five chapters in ADWD are just spinning wheels. Her story only comes to life at Daznak’s Pit.

I think Dany’s and Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD could easily have been cut by half, giving space for the two battles.

I mostly enjoyed both books, but they are frustrating. They’re leading up to a climax that never arrives.

If the show ending matches the books’ ending, I could see why Martin would never want to finish. Better to have an unfinished ending than one that sucks donkey balls.

The two D’s were in love with the Lannisters. Tyrion was a saintly pacifist, too good for this cruel world. Tywin was “lawful neutral”, hard but fair. Cersei was a tragic heroine, looking out for her children. For the Starks, growing up meant becoming like the Lannisters. I actually think they disliked Kit Harrington, hence the jokes about his height and penis size. At the end, they turned Jon into a pathetic waste of space. None of this aligns with the books.

Had the show had a satisfying ending, I expect that the decline in quality would have been forgiven by most viewers. Parts of season 6 were silly, but that season did finish very strongly. But Seasons 7 and 8 just doubled down on all the Show’s faults.

I know of no jurisdiction in which children are treated in such a fashion. If you feel no sympathy for Arya, then you aren’t reading her story.

Dragons prefer their food char-grilled, and extremely well done, so the flavour probably isn’t that important.

I see the slavery arc as mirroring the enslavement of the Dead. The slavers are indeed pure evil, but so really are the Boltons, Freys, Brave Companions, Ser Gregor Clegane and his men etc. Robb’s enemies are so vile, that it’s easy to overlook that his army is quite brutal.

Jon’s murdering his own wife would be bleak. If it happens, I expect it will be down to Tyrion’s sexual jealousy, which would give a somewhat similar ending to the show, but without attempting to whitewash the Imp.

I was delighted by Joffrey’s death.

But, Sweetrobin is horrid.

IIRC, I was 11 when I first read LOTR.

I think you mean Margaery had Joffrey killed, but I doubt if Margaery was the instigator of the poisoning.

Sansa's killing Sweetrobin would probably enhance her popularity among the fandom. Her having sex would probably arouse more controversy. I don't see the Stark children as villains, one-dimensional or otherwise, but I think they will tread dark paths, like the children in A High Wind in Jamaica.

Who wouldn’t get pleasure from killing a murdering, raping, paedophile?

Staffies are even better. I had a Staffordshire Cross from 2007-13, who was daft as a brush, but great fun. Now I have a cat, so a dog’s out of the question.

Just turned 17 now. We first see her a couple of months short of 13, getting groped by her brother. I think she had just turned 12, when Illyrio took them in. Illyrio was very tempted to make her his child mistress, and had to get a lookalike sex slave, instead. Hers is the longest timeline of all the main POV characters. Her whole story (like Sansa’s) is full of squick, with much older men hungering for their hot 12/13 year old bodies.