Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Goodbye World]

Speaking of plot twists, wouldn't it be great if TUC ended with Achamian and Mimara (or one of them) joining the consult? That, after they kill Kellhus of course.

As for the third series, my prediction is that it will be set far into the future after TUC, maybe a thousand or two thousand years later.

[Shryke]

R. Scott Bakker Interview (from 2011):

He's not saying the book is full of red herrings in the same way you are implying though.

What he's saying there is that, yes, there is a correlation there between some real world thing and the book's universe but that the correlation itself is not meaningful.

It's basically like he had to pick a number so why not pick one with biblical significance cause it goes with the general feel of the series? But it doesn't mean anything specific.

I imagine tons of things in the series are named exactly this way.

[Goodbye World]

He's not saying the book is full of red herrings in the same way you are implying though.

What he's saying there is that, yes, there is a correlation there between some real world thing and the book's universe but that the correlation itself is not meaningful.

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that a red herring is something related to the plot in some way that it would make a difference if it weren't actually a red herring. Your example and the one in the interview don't apply because what difference to the plot would it make whether the 144,000 is taken from the bible or let's say he came up with it by coincidence?

[Shryke]

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that a red herring is something related to the plot in some way that it would make a difference if it weren't actually a red herring. Your example and the one in the interview don't apply because what difference to the plot would it make whether the 144,000 is taken from the bible or let's say he came up with it by coincidence?

A red herring is a distraction. It's something that looks meaningful, but isn't.

The number looks like it should mean something because it's from the Bible, but it doesn't. It's just Bakker using the number because it's a well-known and portentous one.

It's like using 3 or 7 or 40.

[Sci-2]

Speaking of plot twists, wouldn't it be great if TUC ended with Achamian and Mimara (or one of them) joining the consult? That, after they kill Kellhus of course.

As for the third series, my prediction is that it will be set far into the future after TUC, maybe a thousand or two thousand years later.

Why would either one of them join the Consult?

To save their souls?

And if so, why didn't Seswatha join the Consult? Why aren't the Few being recruited by the Consult?

[Anatúrinbor]

Sorry to interrupt, but is this thread for discussing the SA series only or do other works by Bakker belong here too?

[Goodbye World]

Why would either one of them join the Consult?

To save their souls?

Yeah to save their souls and become immortal. Also, to feature in the third trilogy two thousand years later.

And if so, why didn't Seswatha join the Consult? Why aren't the Few being recruited by the Consult?

Actually, is there a good reason why more sorcerers aren't trying to join the consult?

ETA: It also goes with the fact that the school of mandate has a saying (which I can't find now) to the effect of "we sacrifice our souls for glory now" or something. This is the school that he has repudiated and abandoned, so why wouldn't he go even further and abandon their principles?

[Francis Buck]

The question of why sorcerers don't actively join the Consult kind of requires one to specify which particular time period you're talking about. In the first trilogy, and for a long time before that, no one but the Mandate even believed the Consult still existed. In the second trilogy, the Consult is the focus of an enormous Holy War led by a God-Emperor.

Plus, most sorcerers just don't really know that much about the Consult, not to mention the almost universal social stigma against the Consult. If you haven't read The False Sun (a short story available for free on Bakker's blog), then definitely do so. It kind of explains a lot about why sorcerers do and do not join the Consult, among many other things.

TFS spoilers if you haven't read it:

In general though, I'd say the biggest thing is the incredibly huge social stigma against the Consult in general, and the ignorance about the true nature of Inchoroi (and most importantly, the Inverse Fire).

I personally think Seswatha did in fact witness the Inverse Fire when he and Nau-Cayuti ventured into Golgotterath, and that he does indeed want to save his soul and/or stop damnation in general, but he refused to join the Consult. He either had what we thought was a better method, or he's buying time for himself until one comes along (which is why I think he's not actually dead..much like Shaeonanra, he found a way to indefinitely post-pone death -- and thus damnation -- by somehow making his soul "locked" into his mummified heart, with those Mandati who Grasp it becoming inherently linked to the soul). I still think he's against the Consult -- I feel like him turning out to be a member of Consult in the end feels like too obvious a twist -- but at the same time he doesn't want to be eternally damned either.

[Kalbear]

Sorry to interrupt, but is this thread for discussing the SA series only or do other works by Bakker belong here too?

other works can be talked about if you want.

[Sci-2]

Sorry to interrupt, but is this thread for discussing the SA series only or do other works by Bakker belong here too?

We reference other Bakker works - for example I think the Inchies are Neuropaths gone wrong - but I find most people only expect untagged spoilers for the SA novels and short stories.

Any major plot points from the other non-SA stuff probably would go over better if they're spoiler tagged.

[Goodbye World]

Thanks Francis, but does any of that apply to Achamian (or Mimara)? Achamian knows about the Consult's goal and that other sorcerers have joined them. He also doesn't have any other method of saving his or Mimara's soul (is he capable of doing what you're saying Seswatha did?).

As for the social stigma, I don't understand why anyone joining the consult would care such a thing. In particular Akka and Mimara who have abandoned everyone and don't give a shit what people think about them.

I actually see them as the perfect candidates, more likely to join than Kellhus imo.

There is also the question of who's trying to lure Achamian to Golgoterath by sending him those dreams (assuming that that's true). Could it be that the consult are doing that because they see him as a likely ally against Kellhus? Didn't those dreams start after he abandoned Kellhus in TTT?

[Sci-2]

As for the social stigma, I don't understand why anyone joining the consult would care such a thing. In particular Akka and Mimara who have abandoned everyone and don't give a shit what people think about them.

I think Francis is talking about the time period of the False Sun, when the school that would become the Consult was deemed to be "Feal" and thus weak.

Also, the greatest sorcerer of the age, if not of all history before Kellhus, was allied with the Nonmen against Shae and his fellows. But after the death of the No God you would think more Consult spies would draw in at least some portion of the available sorcerer bloodlines. Especially since Aurang and Aurax know that being the Few is dependent on genes given the grafts genetic revisioning that enable them to apprehend the onta.

[Francis Buck]

I think Francis is talking about the time period of the False Sun, when the school that would become the Consult was deemed to be "Feal" and thus weak.

Also, the greatest sorcerer of the age, if not of all history before Kellhus, was allied with the Nonmen against Shae and his fellows. But after the death of the No God you would think more Consult spies would draw in at least some portion of the available sorcerer bloodlines. Especially since Aurang and Aurax know that being the Few is dependent on genes given the grafts genetic revisioning that enable them to apprehend the onta.

Well, I was talking about both that time period and the current one. But even in the modern day, social stigma and ignorance are massive. The vast majority of schoolmen were skeptics during the first trilogy (and many likely still are). Damnation isn't quite "real" for them. It's too distant and removed from a worldly sensibility. All the members of the Consult have seen the Inverse Fire, and once you've seen Damnation, there's no turning back. It becomes a reality for you.

This is not to mention that the current schoolmen under Kellhus's New Empire (which is basically all of them) have been told that they are no longer damned for being sorcerers, so even if they weren't skeptical of the reality of Damnation before, they have much less to fear regarding it nowadays.

And, again, social stigma. It's not something just to brush away. Look at Titirga's reaction to the concept of the Consult -- I think that's quite indicative of how most modern sorcerers would react. They've all grown up hearing horror stories about the Inchoroi, about the inconceivably grotesque and evil abominations they've created that raped and murder for pleasure. The fucking No-God, to them would seem like death and horror incarnate. All of this is a million times worse for the Mandati.

As for Akka and Mimara, I don't know. I see no reason whatsoever why Mimara should want to join the Consult. She believes herself Holy, and she actually kinda likes that fact. And Achamian has been haunted by the horrors of the Consult for the better part of his life in dreams, and then eventually in real-life as well. I can see a few scenarios where Akka might turn, but I don't necessarily see it as likely. And I definitely don't see Mimara going over.

[Goodbye World]

Also, the greatest sorcerer of the age, if not of all history before Kellhus, was allied with the Nonmen against Shae and his fellows. But after the death of the No God you would think more Consult spies would draw in at least some portion of the available sorcerer bloodlines. Especially since Aurang and Aurax know that being the Few is dependent on genes given the grafts genetic revisioning that enable them to apprehend the onta.

I'm not sure what Seswatha not joining the consult has to do with it, he thought he can save himself in some other way (or didn't even want to), Achamian won't trap his soul because he called it double damnation or something to that effect. As for why the consult hasn't recruited magicians*, well, this time it's different, Kellhus is about to destroy them and Achamian -being his former teacher- is the best ally to have in all of Earwa at this point.

As for Akka and Mimara, I don't know. I see no reason whatsoever why Mimara should want to join the Consult. She believes herself Holy, and she actually kinda likes that fact. And Achamian has been haunted by the horrors of the Consult for the better part of his life in dreams, and then eventually in real-life as well. I can see a few scenarios where Akka might turn, but I don't necesarrily see it as likely. And I definitely don't see Mimara going over.

Well, this is why I called it a plot twist, but I guess I should have also prefaced that by saying crackpot. For the record though, Achamian has an extremely good reason to turn, that alone makes this theory not that farfetched and there is still an entire book to go through in which Achamian could glimpse the inverse fire in one of his Nau dreams.

*I'm getting tired of typing sorercerecrs correctly.

[Sci-2]

I wonder if both the Inverse Fire and Seswatha's Heart are goads that rewrite the soul to support the Consult or Mandate respectively.

Thus Akka seeing the IF may simply cancel out the Seswatha within him, or might just drive him mad.

[lokisnow]

Well, afaik anyway, it seems like they were gathered together or something before they "broke the gates" (whatever that means) and came over the mountains into Earwa.

Eanna = Heaven

men did it backwards they were already safe in heaven but were persuaded to invade the mortal realm to try and save the poor souls being enslaved and tormented at the hands of the cunoroi. They exposed themselves to damnation by breaking the gates of heaven that kept them safe and secure, they returned to the world.

The hundred were delighted, all those souls they'd been denied are now nom nomed.

the inchoroi were delighted, now there was space for themselves in heaven.

the nonmen were not delighted, they were seraphim who'd already been kicked out of heaven in the dawnatime and they'd been spending eternity trying to not draw any attention to themselves and thus avoid damnation by hiding in the darkness of oblivion.

:)

[Francis Buck]

I wonder if both the Inverse Fire and Seswatha's Heart are goads that rewrite the soul to support the Consult or Mandate respectively.

Thus Akka seeing the IF may simply cancel out the Seswatha within him, or might just drive him mad.

I think that's a strong possibility, however I don't believe that's either of their primary purposes. I think the Inverse Fire really does show the truth of one's Damnation (and that it drove the Inchoroi to travel across the Void wiping out planets), and I think that Seswatha's heart was primarily a method of keeping him alive, both to continue the battle against the Consult, and to avoid Damnation. The fact that they work so well as a goads is just a side-effect, though in Seswatha's case in was an intentional side-effect, whereas with the Consult it was a happy coincidence that the IF happened to function so well as a recruiting device.

[Sci-2]

whereas with the Consult it was a happy coincidence that the IF happened to function so well as a recruiting device.

This just seems too far fetched to me. The IF just happens to work so well that everyone who sees it decides to join up with the Consult?

I guess we'll see when Mimara and/or Kellhus gaze into it.

[Kalbear]

I think the inverse fire works too closely to the neuropath equivalent to be coincidence.

[Goodbye World]

Sorry to interrupt, but is this thread for discussing the SA series only or do other works by Bakker belong here too?

The only other work of his that I've read is Disciple of the Dog (although not in it's entirety), I didn't like and it put me off of reading anything else by him. It even made me seriously contemplate whether he has written the SA series by accident somehow, the jury is still out on that question.

On the other hand, all this talk about the Inchoroi being Neuropaths just got me to start that book today. So far it doesn't look as bad as Disciple because it's not narrated by the world's most annoying cynical detective.