Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Goodbye World]

They don’t care about whether or not they help Moënghus. They just want the messages to stop. The highest-probability action to achieve that goal is to do as he says.

Shouldn't they also consider the risks/rewards balance? I mean sending Kellhus has the highest probability of working but it also has the highest probability among all options of ending in another Dunyain on the outside working with his father to achieve some unknown goal.

[Sci-2]

Shouldn't they also consider the risks/rewards balance? I mean sending Kellhus has the highest probability of working but it also has the highest probability among all options of ending in another Dunyain on the outside working with his father to achieve some unknown goal.

But the Dunyain can't conceive of a goal that could really interfere with the Mission.

To the Dunyain the entirety of the outside world is a distraction. All that matters is breeding the ultimate free soul.

[Francis Buck]

I can't help but think the Dunyain are a lot less naieve then they're made out to be, at least the "higher-ups". Like, after a certain point, Dunyain are given access to forbidden, Worldly knowledge (the pragmas, maybe, for example). It kinda doesn't make sense that if they began as a group trying to reach the Absolute (which would inherently require knowledge of the Outside, and thus sorcery and everything that goes with it), that they would then feel the need to strike that knowledge away. Why specifically sorcery? What is it about the Outside that fucks with the Dunyain's goal and practices?

And then the story of sending out Moe to fight off Sranc incurscions seems really...shaky. I mean, could they not know that sending one of their own out into the World is hilariously risky? And what the hell are some Sranc going to do? How have they been dealing with Sranc for the last two-thousand years? They send Moe and look what happens. Have they never had to send out "rangers" before?

It all seems fishy, but then pretty much everything surrounding Moe seems fishy, so I don't know where I'm going with this, other than that, well, the Dunyain are really mysterious. News at 11.

ETA: On a completely unrelated note, I had a random thought last night while dozing to some History Channel documentary about the Book of Enoch (yes, apparently the History Channel does actually play programs about history from time to time, and not just Louisiana Hillbilly Hand-Fishin': Deluxe Edition!): What if the Nonmen are meant to be some sort of analogue to the Nephilim? What if some angelic-ciphrang (or maybe just the regular demonic kind) came down to earth -- the "Watchers" in the Book fo Enoch -- and somehow mated with humans, giving birth to beings that were superior? The Nephilim were often described as giants, and we know that supposedly Nonmen heroes never stopped growing (Ciogli is described as massive)?

Dunno, just a random idea, but it would at least serve as some sort of origin for the Nonmen, which there are relatively few theories of, it seems.

[lokisnow]

I've had an idea that the nonmen might be similar to what you described, or were angelic ciphrang (angels) or whatever, but there's really nothing to support it other than their elvish name. and that's kinda the thing, they're sort of a riff on elves.

[Happy Ent]

Gimli clutched his axe, the weapon of his ancestors. The weapon of his people.

I am of the stone, he repeated to himself, I am of the People. Durin’s line!

He tried to look away from Pippin, who writhed lasciviously, his angelic lips half-parted in a an expression of bliss and pain.

Gimli gagged. Another twitching branch bore into the Halfling’s orifices. He saw how a small leaf, green and glistening, folded itself up as it entered Pippin’s nose.

The abomination of branch and leaf spoke with the Hobbit’s mouth, convulsing around a braid of ivy.

“Barooom. You do not give back, hewer of stone. You chisel and hammer and polish, but you take away. You make smaller. You make dust.”

The branches continued removing Pippin’s clothes. Some picked, some tore, some dissolved.

“The mountain you love? You did not make it.”

“And yet,” Gimli was surprised how firm his voice was, “it is in accordance with Aulë. We were designed for this task, and Eru exults in our art.”

“Ah, yes, always with the Ainur.” Pippin drooled. “But we? With every part we take from this world, we give back. Even in the time of Telperion and Laurelin, we were the source of light. And was it not Aulë himself who made the Sun? So tell me, hewer-of-stone-and-wood, the stuff that you breathe in your dark halls, whence does it come?”

Gimli stood silent.

“We. Give. We. Care.” A shudder through the network of branches that suspended the moaning Hobbit with every word. “We feed your lungs with Aulë’s gift, shaping the sun into air that we not need ourselves. Aulës stunted creatures live by our will. We are a race of lovers. Yet you hew us.”

Father, is his a test?

“You are the defilers of countless Elvish schoolgirls.”

“But that is our nature, too.”

“And for that your are damned.”

“For this we are damned. For boundaries of bark.”

The forest around him became even darker for an instant. Space became smaller. The air was thick and wet and heavy. Then, after another deep shudder that rocked the ground, and Pippin was drenched in sap.

The voice spoke again “Do you see this magnificent creature?” Pippin’s hands began to stroke himself, reaching for the lush garden of hair in his nether regions. “Look at these feet.” Pippin’s fingers tore at his feet with frantic urgency now. “The growth on top? Wild, unbridled, powerful. And here…,” the entire Hobbit was turned around, suspended by branches and ivy. “Feel it…” The soles of Pippin’s feed were only inches from Gimli’s face.

I am of the stone. Father, I must resist this temptation.

“Hm… barky,” said the voice, as a twig traced a line of sap across the shuddering curve of Pippin’s furrowed soles.

“He’s an eater. A consumer of the pig. He cares not which creatures shine in the light of Manwë.” Pippin turned farther, now fully slack. “But even he gives back.“

A deep sound filled the forest, as Pippin passed wind.

[Goodbye World]

But the Dunyain can't conceive of a goal that could really interfere with the Mission.

To the Dunyain the entirety of the outside world is a distraction. All that matters is breeding the ultimate free soul.

Didn't Kellhus conceive of the mission of finding his father? But even if they can't conceive of other goals, surely they can see that if their hiding location becomes known to the outside world it's only a matter of time before someone puts an end to their mission.

[Rhom]

snip

:slowclap:

[Larry of the Lawn]

@HE- I could read that all day.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I wish I had kept up better with this thread - just finished reading the stuff about Maithanet. I was the one who proposed that he wasn't really dead; it was based on the unusual details about Maithanet noticed by Esmi. The question remains, even if we must accept that Maithanet is dead - why did he act differently that day, and why is it important enough for Bakker to call out to us?

[Francis Buck]

Well, that's the thing. If it is Maitha, then theoretically he could be disheveled and overwhelmed by the enormity of the situation at hand, which may be whatever he wanted to alert his brother about (if it was indeed the Gods, then it makes some sense that even a half-dunyain would start gettng a little freaked out by the severity of it all.)

If he's not dead, then what? A skin-spy doesn't make sense, as it would just be a perfect stand-in. It certainly wouldn't need dye for its beard, anyway.

Beyond that, I struggle to see a situation that makes a lick of sense. I think Maitha, in the last few moments (maybe hours) of his life, realized what was going on - just as Kellhus knew he would - and then barely scraped by to accomplish the necessary "conditioned" actions. Though I do think he died just before he could inform Esmi of the relevant information...whatever it was (I assume Kelmomas, ironically...I think Kellhus knew and has known that the Hundred would interfere).

[Chun-Li]

I have a question for the people who have been Bakker fans for some time and have reread his books. There are several info dumps of names and names of places in the SA series, for example this page in the WLW:

Prince Anasûrimbor Kayûtas, General of the Kidruhil, was given command of the Men of the Middle North, the Norsirai sons of the kings who had ruled these lands in Far Antiquity, ere all was lost in the First Apocalypse. They consisted of the fractious Galeoth under King Coithus Narnol, the elder brother of King Coithus Saubon; the black-armoured Thunyeri under King Hringa Vûkyelt, the impetuous son of Hringa Skaiyelt, who had fallen in glory in the First Holy War; the long-bearded Tydonni under King Hoga Hogrim, the quick-tempered nephew of the sainted Earl Hoga Gothyelk and awarded the throne of Ce Tydonn for service in the Unification Wars; and the far-riding Cepalorans under Sibawul te Nurwul, a man noted only for his silence during councils.

With them would march the Swayal Sisterhood and their Grandmistress, Anasûrimbor Serwa, the younger sister of General Kayûtas, and widely thought to be the most powerful witch in the world.

Of the Four Armies, the Men of the Middle-North marched what was perhaps the most perilous path, since it skirted the westward marches of the plain, a route that would take his host near the vast forests that had overgrown ancient Kûniüri. "This is the land of your ancient forefathers," the Aspect-Emperor explained. "Hazard is your inheritance. Vengeance is your birthright!"

King Nersei Proyas, Exalt-General, Veteran of the First Holy War, was given command of the Ketyai of the East, the sons of ancient Shir. They consisted of the javelin-armed Cengemi under indomitable General Couras Nantilla, famed for championing the independence of his long-oppressed people; the silver-mailed Conriyans under Palatine Krijates Empharas, Marshal of the fortress of Attrempus; the bare-chested Famiri under the tempestuous General Halas Siroyon, whose mount, Phiolos, was rumoured to be the swiftest in the world; the Xiangol-eyed Jekki under Prince Nurbanu Ze, the adopted son of Lord Soter, and the first of his people to be called kjineta, or caste-noble; and the white-painted Ainoni under cold-hearted King-Regent Nurbanu Soter, Veteran of the First Holy War, renowned for his pious cruelty through the Unification Wars.

Two Major Schools were assigned to this column: the Scarlet Spires under Heramari Iyokus, the so-called Blind Necromancer, and another Veteran of the First Holy War. And the Mandate, the School of the Aspect-Emperor himself, under their famed Grandmaster, Apperens Saccarees, the first Schoolman to successfully recite one of the Metagnostic Cants.

King Coithus Saubon, Exalt-General, Veteran of the First Holy War, was charged with leading the Ketyai of the West, the sons of ancient Kyraneas and Old Dynasty Shigek. They consisted of the disciplined Nansur under the young General Biaxi Tarpellas, Patridomos of House Biaxi, a shrewd tactician; the spear-bearing Shigeki levies under the indomitable General Rash Soptet, hero of the interminable wars against the Fanim insurrectionists; the desert-born Khirgwi under the mad Chieftain-General Sadu'waralla ab Daza, whose epileptic visions confirmed the divinity of the Aspect-Emperor; the mail-draped Eumarnans under General Inrilil ab Cinganjehoi, son of his famed father in both limb and spirit and an ardent convert to Zaudunyani Inrithism; and the celebrated Shrial Knights under Grandmaster Sampë Ussiliar.

Two Major Schools were also assigned to this column: the Imperial Saik, the School of the old Nansur Emperors, under the aged Grandmaster Temus Enhorû, and the rehabilitated Mysunsai under the irascible Obwë Gûswuran, a Tydonni who behaved more like a Prophet of the Tusk than a sorcerer.

As the heart of the Great Ordeal, both these columns would march within one or two days of each other, utilizing the far greater gap between the outer columns to gather what forage the Istyuli offered. In this way, the Aspect-Emperor hoped to concentrate a greater part of the Believer-Kings' strength, should some calamity overtake either of the flanking columns.

King Sasal Umrapathur was made Marshal of the Ketyai of the South, the sons of Old Invishi, the Hinayati, and the southern Carathay. They consisted of the dusky-skinned Nilnameshi under the brilliant Prince Sasal Charapatha, the eldest son of Umrapathur, and called the Prince of One Hundred Songs in the streets of Invishi because of his exploits during the Unification Wars; the half-heathen Girgashi under the fierce King Urmakthi ab Makthi, a man giant in limb and heart, said to have felled a rampaging mastodon with a single blow of his hammer; the shield-bearing Cironji Marines under the eloquent King Eselos Mursidides, who during the Unification Wars stole his island nation from the Orthodox with a legendary campaign of bribery and assassination; and the regal Kianene under the sober-hearted King Massar ab Kascamandri, youngest brother of the Bandit Padirajah, Fanayal, and rumoured to be as devoted to the Aspect-Emperor as his eldest brother was devoted to his destruction.

With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindûsû, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis.

Umrapathur was given the most uncertain route, in that he would march into the great vacant heart of the Istyuli, into a land so blank that it bore no witness to the ages but simply remained. If the Consult contrived to strike from the east, then he would bear the brunt of that fury.

My question is, are we supposed to keep track of all this shit? And do any of these people even matter besides maybe two or three names?

Every time I see something like this my head almost explodes of only trying to pronounce all of these names let alone keep track of whatever is being said here. So what exactly is Bakker thinking here, and is there any other author who does shit like this?

[Goodbye World]

Well, obviously you're supposed to memorise all of that and do the Dunyain exercise ("The logos is without beginning or end") with it.

[Happy Ent]

Chun-Li: I suppose this style is quite deliberate and wants to align itself with the epic perspective in, say, the Iliad. Pages and pages of interchangeable Greek and Trojan heroes that you aren’t supposed to invest yourself in. It should merely give the feeling that the whole ordeal consists of many more important characters than those that happen to feature in the story.

(I quite like the way this adds perspective, but your mileage may certainly vary!)

The particular passage you quote actually happens to include several names that we are supposed to care about (Iyokus, Proyas, Saubon), and lots of other information that’s relatively easy to relate to (the Swayali). There are other passages that are a lot denser.

ETA: In the quoted passage, note particularly the consistent use of epitheta ornantia, which distinctly Homeric: silver-mailed Conriyans, white-painted Ainoni, tempestuous this, and irascible that.

[lokisnow]

I have a question for the people who have been Bakker fans for some time and have reread his books. There are several info dumps of names and names of places in the SA series, for example this page in the WLW:

My question is, are we supposed to keep track of all this shit? And do any of these people even matter besides maybe two or three names?

Every time I see something like this my head almost explodes of only trying to pronounce all of these names let alone keep track of whatever is being said here. So what exactly is Bakker thinking here, and is there any other author who does shit like this?

My approach to these chapters has always been influenced by my time in university. Our professor referred to passages like that as "epic cataloguing" and I remember noting it in the Aeneid, the Iliad, the Odyssey, Orlando Furioso or Paradise Lost for example. It's a specific sort of style meant to evoke those ancient world epics and give it an "olde" feel. Are those names important? Not really, it's important for the feel invoked, but you don't really need to know any of those names. On a re-read you would not that the division into four armies is significant--which is part of why there is such emphasis on the divisions at this point--and so are some names like Sacarees and Carindisu, but ultimately outside of style and some foreshadowing of events at the end of the book you don't need to take away any of these names. I've read the books and I couldn't tell you where any of the races are from other than the Norsirai (ancient north). All the other are a gaggle of impossible to parse distinctions.

[Goodbye World]

but ultimately outside of style and some foreshadowing of events at the end of the book you don't need to take away any of these names. I've read the books and I couldn't tell you where any of the races are from other than the Norsirai (ancient north). All the other are a gaggle of impossible to parse distinctions.

Yeah, I'm not even sure if I can take all that info in even if I wanted to. I mostly just skim through those sections looking for familiar names or anything that seems important. From this passage it's the fact that there are four columns and who their leaders are (Kayûtas+Serwa/Proyas/Saubon/Sasal), and the sorcerer schools. Some of the other names might become important later on but it's impossible to tell at this point.

As for races and their descriptions and where they all come from, I keep telling myself that I'll start paying attention to all of that on a reread.

[Happy Ent]

Oh, by the way, the names in the quotes section are, as usual, top-notch. Bakker does this right in the same way Tolkien did: all those different nations actually have names that clearly come from different languages. Instead of all being called Bob, Willow, or Ct’thgr’ngg’thalph.

[TheEvilKing]

I have a question for the people who have been Bakker fans for some time and have reread his books. There are several info dumps of names and names of places in the SA series, for example this page in the WLW:

My question is, are we supposed to keep track of all this shit? And do any of these people even matter besides maybe two or three names?

Every time I see something like this my head almost explodes of only trying to pronounce all of these names let alone keep track of whatever is being said here. So what exactly is Bakker thinking here, and is there any other author who does shit like this?

I loved that part, it was my favourite bit of the second trilogy so far.

[Shryke]

My approach to these chapters has always been influenced by my time in university. Our professor referred to passages like that as "epic cataloguing" and I remember noting it in the Aeneid, the Iliad, the Odyssey, Orlando Furioso or Paradise Lost for example. It's a specific sort of style meant to evoke those ancient world epics and give it an "olde" feel. Are those names important? Not really, it's important for the feel invoked, but you don't really need to know any of those names. On a re-read you would not that the division into four armies is significant--which is part of why there is such emphasis on the divisions at this point--and so are some names like Sacarees and Carindisu, but ultimately outside of style and some foreshadowing of events at the end of the book you don't need to take away any of these names. I've read the books and I couldn't tell you where any of the races are from other than the Norsirai (ancient north). All the other are a gaggle of impossible to parse distinctions.

There's 5 tribes of men. (well, I guess 6)

The men already living in Earwa:

Emwama - no clue wtf they look like

The 5 Tribes of Men:

Norsirai - blonde white people, lived in the North, a few of the nations to the north-east of the Three Seas are also Norsirai

Ketyai - brown people, live around the Three Seas

Satyothi - black people, mostly in Zeum, some in the south-western parts of the Three Seas too

Scylvendi - dark-haired white people, live on the steppe

Xiuhianni - described as "black hair, olive skin, dark eyes" and are, I'm almost certain, asian-looking, still live east of the big-ass mountains and never crossed them into Earwa with the other 4 tribes, there's a few of them way up in the mountains in eastern High Ainon as I remember

There's only a few nations that are white or black and the rest are brown. It's actually fairly easy to keep track of once you find the information (most of it is in the language section of the very first book as I remember)

[Francis Buck]

That's one (of many) areas where I think Bakker vastly improved in the second trilogy over the first. Those classical epic-style lists felt too much like boring info dumps in the first trilogy, but in the second -- especially WLW-- I think he nailed the shit out of them. He also does a much better job of giving the Ordeal itself it's own sort of storyline (aide from Sorweel I mean) with the way the narrative sort of flits between different characters and generals. The Nilnameshi son and father, the stuff with Carindusu and Saccarees, etc., all made that stuff way more compelling for me in WLW than it was in TWP.

ETA:

There's 5 tribes of men. (well, I guess 6)

The men already living in Earwa:

Emwama - no clue wtf they look like

The 5 Tribes of Men:

Norsirai - blonde white people, lived in the North, a few of the nations to the north-east of the Three Seas are also Norsirai

Ketyai - brown people, live around the Three Seas

Satyothi - black people, mostly in Zeum, some in the south-western parts of the Three Seas too

Scylvendi - dark-haired white people, live on the steppe

Xiuhianni - described as "black hair, olive skin, dark eyes" and are, I'm almost certain, asian-looking, still live east of the big-ass mountains and never crossed them into Earwa with the other 4 tribes, there's a few of them way up in the mountains in eastern High Ainon as I remember

There's only a few nations that are white or black and the rest are brown. It's actually fairly easy to keep track of once you find the information (most of it is in the language section of the very first book as I remember)

Yeah the Xiuhianni are definitely supposed to be Asian, there are references to their eyes having an epicanthic fold I believe (the people from Jekkia). One of the Skin-Eaters...the tracker dude, can't remember his name...is described like that I think.

I always kind of imagined the Emwama as looking like Native Americans, not sure why (I guess some sub-conscious association with a native peoples being invaded by foreign cultures and then oppressed).

The stuff with races and their associated cultures and environments is kind of weird though. Theoretically, given the enormity of Earwa and the variety of environments, the Emwama should technically be just as varied in physical appearance as the Five Tribes are when they come over. It's also kind of weird that the Five Tribes all ended up settling in areas that are associated with the respective environment where that particular "race" (using this lightly here, since the tribes are obviously more archetypal races than anything specific) would have natively inhabited -- and then Earwa of course vaguely mirrors our own earth (at least, the greater part of the West and Middle-East, along with a some of Africa).

[Shryke]

I liked the lists in both. Especially in the first trilogy where you would keep noticing certain names popping up and there were a few "character arcs" of sort for some of these guys as you'd see enough of what they were doing to imagine some epic rise/fall going on somewhere else in the Holy War that the narrative wasn't paying attention to.

It's definitely gotten better though. That stuff in TWLW is by far the best he's done of it.