Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Borque]

Totally agree about Maithanet though. One of the most likeable characters in a series with very few.

I almost like him, but don't trust him. He is definitely badass. He also comes across as a good guy, as any (balanced) half-Dûnyain would - we only see him through people he has almost certainly consciously manipulated. For what we know, he might be as callous and calculating as Kellhus.

Also, I am eagerly awaiting the first "Maitha is not dead" crackpot. I don't think there has been any yet.

[Castel]

I almost like him, but don't trust him. He is definitely badass. He also comes across as a good guy, as any (balanced) half-Dûnyain would - we only see him through people he has almost certainly consciously manipulated. For what we know, he might be as callous and calculating as Kellhus.

Also, I am eagerly awaiting the first "Maitha is not dead" crackpot. I don't think there has been any yet.

I'm pretty sure that there has been? Wasn't there one based on his clothes and the oil in his beard? I think even the best crackpots quickly gave up on that.

[Happy Ent]

Maitha is not dead; the White-Luck Warrior killed a skin spy instead.

Esmi recalls that the Thing Called Maithanet he has used cheaper dye than Maithanet usually would. Why would Maitha do that? Why would Esmi notice? Why would Bakker tell us that Esmi notices?

We do know that the Temples have been identifying skin spies for decades. Maitha has manipulated them, much like Moënghus did. Eventually, he managed to turn one of them, and made that skin spy take the fall for him.

Edit: Castel beat me to it.

[Borque]

Thank you, both of you. :)

When I go back to the text, there is something highly suspicious about the whole thing. Scott writes things like "Esmenet could only blink as Maithanet sputtered and died before her", "He died at her assassin's feet", and mentions "the dead Shriah's inert form" - there is absolutely nothing of the ambiguity we usually see in these books when important people die.

So, to me, this passage clearly indicates only that Scott really wants us to believe he is dead.

Though there is a minor problem with the skin spy theory - the text doesn't mention his face collapsing. But maybe he fell with his face downwards, which would explain this nicely.

[Happy Ent]

I think it’s clear: “the dead Shria’s inert form,” emphasis mine. Not “the dead Shria.”

Bakker couldn’t spell it out more clearly. The Thing at Esmi’s feet is not the Shria. It just has his form.

Maitha is alive and well in Sumna. With his brothers and sisters (Moënghus’s children, who – muck like Moënghus – are also not dead) he labour hard to make manifest Kellhus’s main weapon: The Yes-God. A towering apollonian creation who will take the field in the last volume. The Yes-God is positive, and emanates an aura of believing in having responsibility for your own destiny. He is cheerful. He creates meaning and a can-do attitude in his followers. His avatar is a beautiful, double-wielding female assassin with manga hair and endearing clumsiness.

“Tell me – what are you grateful for today?”

[Chun-Li]

Huh? I thought your previous post was serious but now this...

[unJon]

:rofl: HE. Damn I miss the like button.

[Kalbear]

TELL ME

I MUST KNOW

WHAT DO YOU NOT LIKE ABOUT YOURSELF

HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU

YOU GET A HERON SPEAR AND YOU GET A HERON SPEAR AND EVERYONE GETS A HERON SPEAR

[Chun-Li]

Sorry, but shouldn't the Yes-God be answering questions instead of asking them?

[Kalbear]

No; both the no god and the yes god clearly have the answers (no and yes). The questions are all.

[Sci-2]

I figured the Yes-God would be a Bakker fan who just can't stop sucking up.

"That scene with Esmi in the whore house, reminiscing about whoring like a whore who whores during whore time?

Fucking genius shit that will redefine feminism!"

[Maithanet]

I usually lurk in these threads because I do not find the metaphysical questions and permutations of the series to be worth endlessly discussing. But THIS topic is one for me :cool4: .

Man, I always get sad when I remember Maithanet's dead. He was such a bad ass. I always liked the scene where he just choke-grabs that Mandate skin-spy out of nowhere. It was so unexpected the first time.

Bakker basically pulled the same trick on me that Maithanet pulled on Esmi. He's like Kellhus, and a badass Dunyain in his own right, but not so much of a bastard that you hate his guts. It helps that he dies for absolutely no reason (goddamn I hate that kid)

Yes, very sad. He was a badass, and possibly not even a monster. His level of bastardhood was never entirely clear. He is offscreen most of the time, but other than playing a part in the various plots of Moengus and Kellhus, he doesn't do much wrong. And can you really blame anyone for that in this series? He walks on conditioned ground, he is merely somewhat more aware of it than the puny humans. He seems to be better trained than any of Kellhus' children, possibly because Moengus spend more time tutoring him than Kellhus ever did for his offspring.

Yeah, I think it's a step too far to say that how Maithanet died was an example of Deus Ex. We were primed as to how the "Gift of Yatwer" rolled throughout the book. That said, I say that as one who still is a little "the fuck?" about that whole thing/character.

Totally agree about Maithanet though. One of the most likeable characters in a series with very few.

As for his death, I get the idea that there's a greater than zero probability that he could be surprised. But the way it's written - "the one place overlooked" - it came off as forced to me.

The whole scene of Maitha's death comes across as very strange, almost surreal. Like Esmenet is remembering the day that Maitha died and the Fanim arrived, rather than experiencing it. But I wouldn't say that it came across as Deus Ex Machina. Earlier in the book, Inirilatas was able to surprise Maithanet and nearly kill him. Do you think that Ini could have done the same with Kellhus? He would have suspected his son's plot with one look. Maithanet seems like a very well rounded Diet Dunyain (only one parent, not Dunyain enough!) Most of Kellhus' children seem to be near Kel in some respects, but horribly lacking in others. Maitha has some of the charm, some of the far-sight, some of the superior physical skills, but in all cases falls far short of Kellhus. I can easily believe that the WLW could catch him by surprise.

I don't see any other reading than him telling the truth to Esmi about not knowing what is going on with the Ordeal. Presumably he is still trying to work it out, and see if he can learn anything from Esmenet, given her level of contact with Kellhus he's hoping she can give him some clue. But, I still haven't put together a compelling answer either. The idea that Kellhus doesn't care about the Three Seas once the Ordeal is launched seems...unDunyain. And if he actually wanted the Empire to collapse and be replaced by the Fanim, why didn't he take Maithanet with him? Surely he could be an asset to the Ordeal and if left behind could make a potential Fanim takeover much more difficult. Does Kellhus just not trust Maithanet? If so, does that mean that Maithanet MUST not be trustworthy (because Kellhus would surely take him along if he could be trusted?)

[Castel]

And if he actually wanted the Empire to collapse and be replaced by the Fanim, why didn't he take Maithanet with him?

He doesn't want the Fanim to take over, he just doesn't care what happens. And one possible answer is that he needed things to be stable long enough for him to gain an excuse to cut off communication.

[Sci-2]

I usually lurk in these threads because I do not find the metaphysical questions and permutations of the series to be worth endlessly discussing.

Uh...thanks for sharing?

I can easily believe that the WLW could catch him by surprise.

But it isn't a question of the WLW gaining the drop on Maitha. It's the meta-narrative of there always being a place overlooked.

[Maithanet]

Uh...thanks for sharing?

Did you read the next sentence? It was a joke, I edited it to make it a little clearer.

But it isn't a question of the WLW gaining the drop on Maitha. It's the meta-narrative of there always being a place overlooked.

But if we agree that WLW could get the drop on Maitha, then what is the issue with there being something overlooked? I mean, isn't that what getting the drop on someone means?

He doesn't want the Fanim to take over, he just doesn't care what happens. And one possible answer is that he needed things to be stable long enough for him to gain an excuse to cut off communication.

Castel: Well, I've heard both theories on these threads, which is why I mentioned both. Neither struck me as very convincing. Even if the Great Ordeal is very far away from the Empire, Kellhus, Serwa and the head of the Mandate are capable of teleporting long distances (comparatively) quickly. Even if the Ordeal is thousands of miles away, but it is not completely isolated from its base of support. Why wouldn't it be preferable to have the Empire remain (somewhat) intact to provide such help if needed?

I understand the desire to cut off communication for the soldiers and sorcerers going on the GO, because this is a one-way trip and everyone needs to accept that. But that doesn't apply to communications between Kellhus and Maithanet.

[Castel]

But if we agree that WLW could get the drop on Maitha, then what is the issue with there being something overlooked? I mean, isn't that what getting the drop on someone means?

I suppose it's the difference between "place" and "path". Path implies a string of highly unlikely events all happening leading to Maitha's death. Place implies that the WLW was hiding just out of eyeshot (is this word weird to anyone else?) and popped up and killed Maithanet, seems a bit goofy. That's the best I can come up with anyway, since Sci seems to have no problem with the mechanics.

Even if the Ordeal is thousands of miles away, but it is not completely isolated from its base of support. Why wouldn't it be preferable to have the Empire remain (somewhat) intact to provide such help if needed?

By the time the Ordeal was cut off they were beyond help, any help would have to gather, run through the Empire, go past the final city, scavenge to support themselves all until they can meet the Ordeal...which has a few months/year lead. It's just not feasible.By the time they get there all would be lost. And what help could be provided? More men? They're just the machine that carries the truly valuable resources-sorcerers, mathematicians and Dunyain.Kellhus has already taken most of those from The Three Seas. If those die...well,I imagine it goes something like this.

[Sci-2]

The ideal [scenario] is for Zeum to consume the Empire, because if the No-God walks the entirety of Kellhus's kingdom will be used as time-giving fodder the Zeumi prepare to face the legions of the Consult.

Which is why Kellhus antagonized Zeum even as he drained the Empire of its resources. [Otherwise the Zeumi might just watch the Empire collapse but no do anything.]

[Maithanet]

By the time the Ordeal was cut off they were beyond help, any help would have to gather, run through the Empire, go past the final city, scavenge to support themselves all until they can meet the Ordeal...which has a few months/year lead. It's just not feasible.By the time they get there all would be lost. And what help could be provided? More men? They're just the machine that carries the truly valuable resources-sorcerers, mathematicians and Dunyain.Kellhus has already taken most of those from The Three Seas. If those die...well,I imagine it goes something like this.

I agree that they are cut off from a land expedition across the wastes, it would take too much time. But that's why I mentioned the metagnosis teleporting, which means that potentially a small group could travel back and forth to the empire if the need arose. I don't know what that would be, but if something came up like the rediscovery of the Heron Spear, Maitha would have no way to tell Kellhus or get it to him.

[Castel]

I agree that they are cut off from a land expedition across the wastes, it would take too much time. But that's why I mentioned the metagnosis teleporting, which means that potentially a small group could travel back and forth to the empire if the need arose. I don't know what that would be, but if something came up like the rediscovery of the Heron Spear, Maitha would have no way to tell Kellhus or get it to him.

Point on the Heron Spear. The problem is;this seems really unlikely. And otherwise, what else would they use it for? Moral support? Only Kellhus can travel fast enough. Everyone else has to skip about slowly,the Grandmaster perhaps even more than Serwa. For what? You'd essentially either lose the Emperor or a Grandmaster while they went off and...got some special delivery from the Empire (which is probably going to be tiny).

Maitha might need Kellhus' help, but it's unlikely that he can help Kellhus so the relationship is not necessarily profitable.

[Sci-2]

Did you read the next sentence? It was a joke, I edited it to make it a little clearer.

Ah, I thought it was weird someone would still be reading these threads - or really reading the books since metaphysics [and plot] is way more important than character at this point - if they disliked the speculation done here.