Joe Abercrombie Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Bayaz is the absolute epitome of lawful evil, surely. He creates hierarchy and order as long as it serves his purposes, demands obedience and crushes those who resist by any means necessary. He accepts no moral law beyond that which he imposes. 'Power makes all things right. That is my first law, and my last.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is it really lawful evil if you disregard the laws and the hierarchy you impose? If you see yourself as above and beyond the principle of order, you don't really believe in the value of order, just your own selfish aims, i.e. neutral evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 True, he doesn't believe his own bullshit, he has no moral code whatsoever, but I would have thought his megalomaniac obsession with power, control and obedience put him firmly in the lawful camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migey Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I feel a bit weird disagreeing with an author about one of his own characters. But can it really be Lawful Evil when he sets the laws? That sort of seems to defeat the point. And a megalomaniac obsession with power, control, and obedience seem to me to be the natural criteria for the plain old evil camp. I don't see how those traits fit specifically into the "Lawful" part of lawful evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 THEN FUCK YOU GUYS! I AM THE LAST AUTHORITY HERE AND YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED! Fine. Neutral Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 #rekt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Well, Bayaz certainly seems to have a belief in law. But then again, he's just as happy to use chaos as a tool, if it suits his aims. So yeah, Neutral Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 The D&D alignment system is more than subtle enough to simply categorise the vast majority of real people, but my characters are so deep and multi-faceted they defy easy placement into one of nine simple boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dietl Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I like Bayaz. He is such a nice old man and one day you all will realise it and feel ashamed for saying so mean things about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 The D&D alignment system is more than subtle enough to simply categorise the vast majority of real people, but my characters are so deep and multi-faceted they defy easy placement into one of nine simple boxes. That's just your Chaotic Neutral hatred of systems talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I like Bayaz. He is such a nice old man and one day you all will realise it and feel ashamed for saying so mean things about him. Like most evil people, he's great when he's on your side and your goals align with his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Where's Khalul fit? He's gone too far in the pursuit of vengeance, but he's also a Prophet. There's all sorts of laws involved in religion. Does that make him lawful evil? Aside from the fact he broke the Second Law. The Eaters seem to actually like him, but I'm not sure whether that's brain-washing or whether Khalul is actually a nice guy who uses horrible methods (which might make him sort of neutral?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dietl Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Like most evil people, he's great when he's on your side and your goals align with his... What would you do, if you were in his position? If you lived this seemingly endless life and watched mankind fighting the same wars over and over again, wouldn't you want to try to change things and take things into your own hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I don't see how murdering his girlfriend, her father, and his teacher fit into that sort of justification for Bayaz' actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dietl Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I don't see how murdering his girlfriend, her father, and his teacher fit into that sort of justification for Bayaz' actions. Pfff, details! And wasn't like that really long ago? You can't blame him forever for his youthful indiscretion. People can change, why else put murders into prison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Bayaz is the absolute epitome of lawful evil, surely. He creates hierarchy and order as long as it serves his purposes, demands obedience and crushes those who resist by any means necessary. He accepts no moral law beyond that which he imposes. 'Power makes all things right. That is my first law, and my last.' A new definition of "the first law" ? THEN FUCK YOU GUYS! I AM THE LAST AUTHORITY HERE AND YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED! Fine. Neutral Evil. :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddington Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 What would you do, if you were in his position? If you lived this seemingly endless life and watched mankind fighting the same wars over and over again, wouldn't you want to try to change things and take things into your own hand? Wouldn't mankinds wars, be mostly proxy wars between all of the remaining students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 But can it really be Lawful Evil when he sets the laws? That sort of seems to defeat the point. You get Lawful gods, who presumably set the laws of their planes of existence. But they also generally stick to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 This thread is so much win. Good job fellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Abercrombie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 OK, I'm convinced. Bayaz is Neutral Good. He wants what's best for everyone and only he's qualified to say what that looks like. Tough choices have to be made, some of the ants have to be squished, but basically he's after the greater good, and wants to protect the little children from their own stupidity. You want lawful evil? Gandalf, ladies and gentlemen. A fascistic reactionary hell bent on genocide and utterly convinced of the rightness of his cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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