History Teaching in Westeros

[Mithras]

With independent sources of knowledge, true scholars can study and compare different views independently which is crucial for science. The maesters are positioned to influence everything in the Realm. With several sources for the study of science, that threat can be nullified.

[Wmarshal]

With independent sources of knowledge, true scholars can study and compare different views independently which is crucial for science. The maesters are positioned to influence everything in the Realm. With several sources for the study of science, that threat can be nullified.

The maesters are the scholars of Westeros, they don't make crap up, they study history. They but the books from around the world then redo them for Westerosi to read, and they aren't home grown at Citadel, they come from around the land. Not everything comes from them, they just redo it. Aswe saw, the maester got his info from the septon and fool.

[Mithras]

The maesters are the scholars of Westeros, they don't make crap up, they study history. They but the books from around the world then redo them for Westerosi to read, and they aren't home grown at Citadel, they come from around the land. Not everything comes from them, they just redo it. Aswe saw, the maester got his info from the septon and fool.

The maesters cannot study everything freely. A faction of them has a certain world view and they are designing the world according to their vision as Marwyn told.

BTW, I never saw a personal historian of a king. Normally, kings have such people to record the events happening during their reign. Of course those sources are biased but still they can be used comparatively and the bias can be filtered out. It is awkward that a maester has to rely on the accounts of a septon and a fool. It is obvious that Grand Maester is a political agent and he is not fit to be the personal historian of the king. I think such an office is missing.

[CharlesW]

Can't.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

As we see from TPatQ and TRP, the history books in Westeros suck.

I think Citadel's monopoly must be broken. A new institution of science in White Harbour would be perfect.

How exactly do the history books suck? The quality and quantity of information is rather excellent considering they don't have cameras or other recording devices, there are no official methods of disseminating information around the country, there re no press conferences, and 99% of people aren't literate.

Even on fantasy forums the conspiracy nuts rule, too quick to see character's failings and authors artistic choices as a conspiracy on the part of various fictional organisation.

[Arakan]

It seems to me most maesters, like Luwin, are simply close minded people who learn science on books, but know nothing about research and scientific method.

Having said this, it's true that their entire culture has not yet achieved determined cultural standards, at least as far as we know no Galileo Galilei has tried to teach them the right approach to open questions and 'assumptions'.

Sorry but nothing in the books supports this thesis at all. They might be (often understandably) biased towards magic and supernatural stuff but your conclusion is not true.

[Mithras]

How exactly do the history books suck? The quality and quantity of information is rather excellent considering they don't have cameras or other recording devices, there are no official methods of disseminating information around the country, there re no press conferences, and 99% of people aren't literate.

Even on fantasy forums the conspiracy nuts rule, too quick to see character's failings and authors artistic choices as a conspiracy on the part of various fictional organisation.

“Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?”

Tyrion grinned. “Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble … only the dragon was Syrax, not Vhagar.”

“I fear that you’re mistaken. In The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes—”

“—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?”

This is a very simple proof checking that a Grand Maester who wrote a history book was unable to make.

[Wmarshal]

The maesters cannot study everything freely. A faction of them has a certain world view and they are designing the world according to their vision as Marwyn told.

BTW, I never saw a personal historian of a king. Normally, kings have such people to record the events happening during their reign. Of course those sources are biased but still they can be used comparatively and the bias can be filtered out. It is awkward that a maester has to rely on the accounts of a septon and a fool. It is obvious that Grand Maester is a political agent and he is not fit to be the personal historian of the king. I think such an office is missing.

Yeah they can, that is part of their right, they may be looked done on for magic, but are free to study as they will. If they didn't Marwyn wouldn't be studing magic at all.

Maybe, we have no idea what enough GM have, their enough may burned by kings, in a time such as Baelor's that may be the case.

[Arakan]

Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?

Tyrion grinned. Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble only the dragon was Syrax, not Vhagar.

I fear that youre mistaken. In The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes

that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byrons squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyras she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munkens version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storms End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegons brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?

This is a very simple proof checking that a Grand Maester who wrote a history book was unable to make.

Well, Paper, I am a big fan of inductive reasoning but to conclude that all history books sucks because of a (minor) mistake in one book, is a little bit too harsh :).

Those mistakes happened and happen in RL all the time. And I am not even speaking of deliberate attempts to rewrite history ;)

(Japanese history books about Nanking anyone?)

[Mithras]

Well, Paper, I am a big fan of inductive reasoning but to conclude that all history books sucks because of a (minor) mistake in one book, is a little bit too harsh :).

Those mistakes happened and happen in RL all the time. And I am not even speaking of deliberate attempts to rewrite history ;)

(Japanese history books about Nanking anyone?)

That was only an in-text example of inconsistencies in history books. It may well be that Tyrion might be wrong because the current Swann Lord supported every side of the conflict to make sure that he would be on the winning side in every case. So Tyrion's main argument might be false.

I think the presence of rival institutions to the Citadel might create the lacking peer critic and such mistakes can be eliminated easily.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Sorry but nothing in the books supports this thesis at all. They might be (often understandably) biased towards magic and supernatural stuff but your conclusion is not true.

wow, you are so brilliant..

I premised my statement with "it seems to me", that is to imply the following statement was an opinion, not a fact. When I say the earth is spherical shaped I do not take any effort of using such convoluted premise.

My opinion is certainly biased, but nonetheless it's not factual that is wrong as much it is not factual that it is true. The books don't clearly state anything definitive in the direction of my thesis, but they certainly don't disproof it as well, so I'm entitled to draw my own conclusions when I clearly state them as such. And I did it, while you did not.

[Batbob45]

History in Westeros is mostly taught to males. Their have been some exceptions

[Mithras]

Septon Barth’s book was banned and burned. At the same time, false dragonlore books filled with BS were published to erase the memory of Barth’s book.

Baelor’s decree to burn Septon Barth’s book was not carried out in Dorne and it is possible that the dragon book Doran gave to Arianne was Barth’s complete book.

With more centers for science, such censorship would not work as easy.

“Archmaester Marwyn’s Book of Lost Books.” He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. “Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed.” Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. “See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria.

I think Marwyn recovered the complete book but he only published the three pages that he thought safe to publish because he too does not fancy poison in his porridge.