TOJ

[WhiteOwl18]

Marriage between one man and one woman is the essence of medievaI (and so Westerosi) society. Polygamy isn't bashed because it isn't an issue, it just has no place in a medieval society, not possible. It would be like marrying someone of the same sex in the middle-ages, or marrying your horse. Of course you can say the words and do the ceremony, but that doesn't make it an actual marriage. So, I don't need to quote anything to proof something so obvious. You're the ones with the crazy theory, not me.

No. It's not because people aren't bashing marrying animals, that they wouldn't oppose to it. Incest is a major issue in the books, so obviously you have lots of quotes about that. When polygamous marriages becomes an actual issue, we can talk again (but it won't).

The point is that there is nothing in the books that points out to any objection towards polygamy. What that tells me is that it can't be discounted as a possibility. Especially since we have precedents for it and it is suggested to Dany as a possibility.

As for your definition of marriage, well, Westeros isn't like our world. While GRRM has certainly based a lot of it in medieval history, the fact is that it has its own story and rules. Polygamy was never made illegal in Westeros. Which means that, even though it's not practiced, it might still be accepted.

[SkaggCannibal]

You apparently have a different copy of the book. Mine contains quite a couple of instances when Aegon and his two sisters-wives are referenced, not to mention that part where Jorah suggests Dany polyandry.

Yes the book talks about something 300years ago... That isn't an issue anymore. Incest is currently a big issue, with Dany being the product of it and Cersei and Jaime doin it.It isn't hard to grasb the difference. Jorah's suggestion was because of dragons, the only way to enforce such a thing. Rhaegar however, could not.

What bizarre logic. Modern Westeros was built by a man in an acknowledged polygamous relationship. Trying to equate the medieval real world to fantasy land Westeros so completely is absurd.

Yes very bizarre, Westeros and medieval Europe having the some morals, shocking.

[Ygrain]

Yes the book talks about something 300years ago... That isn't an issue anymore. Incest is currently a big issue, with Dany being the product of it and Cersei and Jaime doin it.It isn't hard to grasb the difference. Jorah's suggestion was because of dragons, the only way to enforce such a thing. Rhaegar however, could not.

Craster also has dragons that the multitude of his wives doesn't garner a single comment, while the fact that they are his daughters quite a couple?

Plus, I'm still waiting for an explanation why the Targs were getting away with an abominable sin before gods old and new long after they had no dragons.

Yes very bizarre, Westeros and medieval Europe having the some morals, shocking.

You must have some different history books, as well. Mine definitely didn't mention any medieval European monarch marrying his sister(s).

[SkaggCannibal]

Craster also has dragons that the multitude of his wives doesn't garner a single comment, while the fact that they are his daughters quite a couple?

Plus, I'm still waiting for an explanation why the Targs were getting away with an abominable sin before gods old and new long after they had no dragons.

That's because him raping his daughters causes a greater outrage than him having multiple wives, think everyone can agree on that.

There is a difference between being in control continuing your rule, and getting accepted again when you and your habits have been kicked out already. Don't you see the big difference between Targs in power and Jon the Bastard? He can't force anything the way they did.

You must have some different history books, as well. Mine definitely didn't mention any medieval European monarch marrying his sister(s).

Thanks for making my point, indead both in Westeros and in medieval Europe marrying your sister is considered wrong.

[Ygrain]

That's because him raping his daughters causes a greater outrage than him having multiple wives, think everyone can agree on that.

Curiously, Ygon Oldfather has neither dragons nor is an incestuous rapist, yet his eighteen wives do not cause any lashbatting, either.

There is a difference between being in control continuing your rule, and getting accepted again when you and your habits have been kicked out already. Don't you see the big difference between Targs in power and Jon the Bastard? He can't force anything the way they did.

Do you see the difference between the time when Rhaegar actually might have married Lyanna, and the situation fourteen years later?

Though, I'm not sure how big the difference truly is because kicked out or not, JonCon is planning to marry Aegon to Dany even though she is his aunt.

Thanks for making my point, indead both in Westeros and in medieval Europe marrying your sister is considered wrong.

Indeed. Only, in Europe it is considered wrong for everyone, whereas in Westeros for everyone but Targaryen.

[complexphoenix]

Plus, I'm still waiting for an explanation why the Targs were getting away with an abominable sin before gods old and new long after they had no dragons.

The only Targs who are explicitly confirmed to have been polygamists are Aegon I and Maegor. Incest was practiced throughout the dynasty, and they got away with it in large part because of cultural relativism - they had their roots in Valyria where brother/sister incest was normal, so people shrugged it off and the Faith agreed to tolerate it in their settlement with Jaehaerys I. Also, the tangible consequences of incest seem to be far less severe in GRRM's world - if the Targs were a real family, they would have died out before Aegon was even born, whereas in Westeros inbreeding seems to cause a lot of mental health issues but not nearly as many physical problems.

Polygamy, it's quite clear, is not allowed in Westeros. And it's not allowed because it doesn't fit with their social order. Their whole institutional structure is based on patrilineal inheritance, and their politics are heavily dependent on marriage alliances which create blood ties between Houses. Polygamy muddies the waters of succession and creates a huge potential for conflict between children born to different wives - who has the better claim, the 25 year old son of the first-married wife or the 27 year old son of the second? Both will see their claim backed by their respective mothers' Houses, and it'll come to swords.

Fathers who are marrying their daughters off want to know exactly where their daughters' children will stand in the line of succession. If their expectations are frustrated, there will be fighting. Allowing a man multiple wives at the same time makes it too hard to coordinate and clarify expectations, so they don't allow it.

So, in sum: royal polygamy seems likely to cause a lot more civil wars than royal incest. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to see incest continue, but polygamy cease, after the dragons died out.

[Ygrain]

The only Targs who are explicitly confirmed to have been polygamists are Aegon I and Maegor. Incest was practiced throughout the dynasty, and they got away with it in large part because of cultural relativism - they had their roots in Valyria where brother/sister incest was normal, so people shrugged it off and the Faith agreed to tolerate it in their settlement with Jaehaerys I. Also, the tangible consequences of incest seem to be far less severe in GRRM's world - if the Targs were a real family, they would have died out before Aegon was even born, whereas in Westeros inbreeding seems to cause a lot of mental health issues but not nearly as many physical problems.

People didn't just shrug it off, people were forced by fire and blood because the Targs had an upper hand.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter that we have only two explicit precedents - to form a precedent, one would have been enough. It is the non-explicit part of the SSM that actually conveys the important information: that there has been no line drawn making polygamy impossible.

And sorry, inbreeding doesn't automatically lead to body deformities; the outcome depends on the quality of genes entering the union, and with bad genes, the chance of them passing on to offspring increases.

Polygamy, it's quite clear, is not allowed in Westeros. And it's not allowed because it doesn't fit with their social order. Their whole institutional structure is based on patrilineal inheritance, and their politics are heavily dependent on marriage alliances which create blood ties between Houses. Polygamy muddies the waters of succession and creates a huge potential for conflict between children born to different wives - who has the better claim, the 25 year old son of the first-married wife or the 27 year old son of the second? Both will see their claim backed by their respective mothers' Houses, and it'll come to swords.

Fathers who are marrying their daughters off want to know exactly where their daughters' children will stand in the line of succession. If their expectations are frustrated, there will be fighting. Allowing a man multiple wives at the same time makes it too hard to coordinate and clarify expectations, so they don't allow it.

The line of succession pretty much depends on the set rules, and if we are talking about primogeniture, it doesn't actually matter who the mother was. - This, however, is insubstantial, as, advantageous or not, it happened at least twice and was never made illegal.

So, in sum: royal polygamy seems likely to cause a lot more civil wars than royal incest. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to see incest continue, but polygamy cease, after the dragons died out.

Actually, this is a wrong assumption. We are told that even in Valyria, polygamy was not usual, quite the contrary - it was an unusual move on Aegon's part. Plus, polygamy never receives the label of the huge cultural and religious taboo like incest does - not everything is just about political ramifications.

[Lord Browndodd]

Am I missing something? Surely by this point Elia is dead, so any recently-contracted marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would not be polygamous.

[Sordelor]

Am I missing something? Surely by this point Elia is dead, so any recently-contracted marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would not be polygamous.

She was, but they were already married before that.

[Lord Browndodd]

Yes, they would have to be...

[sarah.jenice]

Calling him Prince Viserys is still giving him honor due to his position but keeping in mind that Robert won, he would never call him king. Robert is king now.

[WeaselPie]

Craster also has dragons that the multitude of his wives doesn't garner a single comment, while the fact that they are his daughters quite a couple?

Plus, I'm still waiting for an explanation why the Targs were getting away with an abominable sin before gods old and new long after they had no dragons.

You must have some different history books, as well. Mine definitely didn't mention any medieval European monarch marrying his sister(s).

Craster had dragons?

[complexphoenix]

Craster had dragons?

Craster lives Beyond the Wall where there are no laws.

[WeaselPie]

Craster lives Beyond the Wall where there are no laws.

uh, I wasn't asking you.

Craster had dragons? Where the heck does that come from?

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

Polygamy, it's quite clear, is not allowed in Westeros. And it's not allowed because it doesn't fit with their social order. Their whole institutional structure is based on patrilineal inheritance, and their politics are heavily dependent on marriage alliances which create blood ties between Houses. Polygamy muddies the waters of succession and creates a huge potential for conflict between children born to different wives - who has the better claim, the 25 year old son of the first-married wife or the 27 year old son of the second? Both will see their claim backed by their respective mothers' Houses, and it'll come to swords.

<snip>

So, in sum: royal polygamy seems likely to cause a lot more civil wars than royal incest. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to see incest continue, but polygamy cease, after the dragons died out.

If the king or crown prince takes a second wife, who exactly is going to tell him that it's not allowed, and enforce that?

This is misleading because polygamy was never a regular practice for Valyrians or Targaryens in the first place.

In 27 BC, Aegon the Conqueror was born to Lord Aerion Targaryen, the son of Daemion, and Lady Valaena of House Velaryon. He later married both his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys. This was considered unusual although there was precedent for it.

- GRRM. Link.

Even when Aegon the Conqueror did it, it was unusual. However, GRRM justified that unusual act by citing precedent. Which reads exactly like the argument R+E&L proponents have been putting forth for years.

[WeaselPie]

If the king or crown prince takes a second wife, who exactly is going to tell him that it's not allowed, and enforce that?

This is misleading because polygamy was never a regular practice for Valyrians or Targaryens in the first place.

- GRRM. Link.

Even when Aegon the Conqueror did it, it was unusual. However, GRRM justified that unusual act by citing precedent. Which reads exactly like the argument R+E&L proponents have been putting forth for years.

A the C committed incestuous polygamy with two of his sisters. He did not commit polygamy with two unrelated daughters of other noble houses.

[J. Stargaryen]

A the C committed incestuous polygamy with two of his sisters. He did not commit polygamy with two unrelated daughters of other noble houses.

So?

[WeaselPie]

So?

lol

[Ghost's Shadow]

If you're going to sleep with two wives at the same time, it can only be sisters of each other, of course... :rolleyes:

[SkaggCannibal]

Indeed. Only, in Europe it is considered wrong for everyone, whereas in Westeros for everyone but Targaryen.

And my initial comment was that I don't believe Ned would have the same opinion, making an acception for Targs because they are Targs. Anyway, the time of exceptions is pretty much done for the Targs, they can't dictate their rules any longer.

Am I missing something? Surely by this point Elia is dead, so any recently-contracted marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would not be polygamous.

Rhaegar died before Elia, so if he ever married Lyanna it would've been polygamous at that point, making it a void marriage.

So?

That's a considerable difference, one you may not like to see, but it is there.