TOJ

[drstrangelove]

Why did Ned say Prince Viserys at the TOJ scene. At the point in time Aerys, Rheagar, baby Aegon, and Rheanys are all dead and Ned is aware aware of them all.

He was there for the Battle of the Trident. He personally saw a dead Aerys and the brutal rape and killing of the remaining targs became a major point of contention between him and Robert. This is what lead him to go find Lyanna in the first place.

Yet when he arrives at TOJ its protected by 3 KG. They quibble back and forth in elligent prose about their being there for obvious reasons. Yet when Ned questions why there not with Viserys, he refers to him as Prince and not King...He had already taken the capital in the name of Robert, so technically the Targs were deposed at this point in time. Do you think Ned already had a handle on what was going on there?

Obviously I know why the KG were there. R+L=J. But do you think Ned had it figured out before it even started?

[Ser Leftwich]

There are a slew of possibilities. But one quick simple one is that Ned was just being polite.

[Sordelor]

I think he allready knew something about Lyanna being pregnant, but him saying prince Viserys does not really have a meaning, I think.

[J. Stargaryen]

Why did Ned say Prince Viserys at the TOJ scene. At the point in time Aerys, Rheagar, baby Aegon, and Rheanys are all dead and Ned is aware aware of them all. He was there for the Battle of the Trident. He personally saw a dead Aerys and the brutal rape and killing of the remaining targs became a major point of contention between him and Robert. This is what lead him to go find Lyanna in the first place. Yet when he arrives at TOJ its protected by 3 KG. They quibble back and forth in elligent prose about their being there for obvious reasons. Yet when Ned questions why there not with Viserys, he refers to him as Prince and not King...He had already taken the capital in the name of Robert, so technically the Targs were deposed at this point in time. Do you think Ned already had a handle on what was going on there? Obviously I know why the KG were there. R+L=J. But do you think Ned had it figured out before it even started?

Either because: Ned knew about Jon already, or he believed only Robert could be called "king" now.

This really should go in the R+L=J thread, imo.

[Mladen]

Because at that time, Robert was Ned's King.

[drstrangelove]

 

Either because: Ned knew about Jon already, or he believed only Robert could be called "king" now.

 

This really should go in the R+L=J thread, imo.

But if Roberts King Viserys is no Prince. I mean it could be as simple as him using tact like the previous poster said.

[Mladen]

But if Roberts King Viserys is no Prince. I mean it could be as simple as him using tact like the previous poster said.

Or perhaps he called him that way just as he called Daenerys Princess in GoT.

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess.

[Sordelor]

But if Roberts King Viserys is no Prince. I mean it could be as simple as him using tact like the previous poster said.

He would still be the king's 2nd cousin :p

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It probably has multiple possible connotations.

Here's my interpretation: He's testing the Kingsguard to see how they react to Viserys being termed "prince." This is apart from Robert being the king now and the Targaryens being out of power; basically he's testing them and humoring them at the same time. Because to these Kingsguard, Viserys should be the king now, right? Yet when Ned refers to Viserys as a prince, do the Kingsguard correct him? Do they say, "Uh no, you mean King Viserys"? Nope.

I think Ned knew exactly what he would find at the Tower, but the political ramifications (i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being married) might have been less confirmed, or he may have doubted them. Calling Viserys "prince" is a quick, subtle way of gauging where the Kingsguards' heads are. They clearly don't see Viserys as being their king; not only are they not with him, not on their way to him and show no interest in doing so, but they don't correct Ned on what should be an incorrect styling.

I think it's pretty clear what this all really means. And also, to my knowledge, I've never seen anyone (including me!) bring up the use of "prince" for Viserys and the Kingsguard's lack of a correction as evidence.

[Ser Leftwich]

Do any members of the opposing sides in TPatQ use the honorifics, prince and princess?

Also, at least partially, Robert's authority is derived from his Targaryen lineage. If you completely get rid of the 'kingliness'/'princeliness' of the Targaryen's, you start down a slippery slope, think the French Revolution. Why honor any king or nobility? Ned is, at least partially, being polite.

Also, very likely what Apple Martini said.

[drstrangelove]

It probably has multiple possible connotations.

 

Here's my interpretation: He's testing the Kingsguard to see how they react to Viserys being termed "prince." This is apart from Robert being the king now and the Targaryens being out of power; basically he's testing them and humoring them at the same time. Because to these Kingsguard, Viserys should be the king now, right? Yet when Ned refers to Viserys as a prince, do the Kingsguard correct him? Do they say, "Uh no, you mean King Viserys"? Nope.

 

I think Ned knew exactly what he would find at the Tower, but the political ramifications (i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being married) might have been less confirmed, or he may have doubted them. Calling Viserys "prince" is a quick, subtle way of gauging where the Kingsguards' heads are. They clearly don't see Viserys as being their king; not only are they not with him, not on their way to him and show no interest in doing so, but they don't correct Ned on what should be an incorrect styling.

 

I think it's pretty clear what this all really means. And also, to my knowledge, I've never seen anyone (including me!) bring up the use of "prince" for Viserys and the Kingsguard's lack of a correction as evidence.

Well said.

[drstrangelove]

Do any members of the opposing sides in TPatQ use the honorifics, prince and princess?

 

Also, at least partially, Robert's authority is derived from his Targaryen lineage. If you completely get rid of the 'kingliness'/'princeliness' of the Targaryen's, you start down a slippery slope, think the French Revolution. Why honor any king or nobility? Ned is, at least partially, being polite.

 

Also, very likely what Apple Martini said.

I don't really think Roberts targ blood really meant anything. They won by conquest. They may have considered it when deciding who would rule but in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean squat.

[ckal9]

Or perhaps he called him that way just as he called Daenerys Princess in GoT.

[The Fallen]

` Meh. He was using the titles they held at the time and how the Kingsguards would view the Targs. "Your king", "your prince". There was even a hint of sarcasm.

I wouldn't read anymore into it.

[Darryk]

I think he suspected.

The fact that he only took 6 of his most trusted men suggests that he knew there was good chance Lyanna would be carrying Rhaegar's child, and wanted as few people as possible to know about it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

` Meh. He was using the titles they held at the time and how the Kingsguards would view the Targs. "Your king", "your prince". There was even a hint of sarcasm.

I wouldn't read anymore into it.

But he wasn't, not for Viserys. That's the idea.

[Mladen]

It probably has multiple possible connotations.

Here's my interpretation: He's testing the Kingsguard to see how they react to Viserys being termed "prince." This is apart from Robert being the king now and the Targaryens being out of power; basically he's testing them and humoring them at the same time. Because to these Kingsguard, Viserys should be the king now, right? Yet when Ned refers to Viserys as a prince, do the Kingsguard correct him? Do they say, "Uh no, you mean King Viserys"? Nope.

I think Ned knew exactly what he would find at the Tower, but the political ramifications (i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being married) might have been less confirmed, or he may have doubted them. Calling Viserys "prince" is a quick, subtle way of gauging where the Kingsguards' heads are. They clearly don't see Viserys as being their king; not only are they not with him, not on their way to him and show no interest in doing so, but they don't correct Ned on what should be an incorrect styling.

I think it's pretty clear what this all really means. And also, to my knowledge, I've never seen anyone (including me!) bring up the use of "prince" for Viserys and the Kingsguard's lack of a correction as evidence.

Hmmm, IDK, all of this sounds logical, reasonable and something I can easily see happening, but there is that premise that Ned knew what he will find there. And that is what I have the problem with. I am not certain that Ned knew exactly about Lyanna and her pregnancy. So, we have to include another element - Ashara(or whoever told Ned where to look). Given that GRRM told us that they had ships in Starfall and that Ashara wasn't nailed to one place, perhaps she was the one to tell Ned where his sister is. I guess your entire post is dependent on who told Ned where is Lyanna, and what information Ned was privy before he met with KG.

[Overlord of Skagos]

yes Ned was being polite and the KG did not correct him..because Jon/Viserys might be the king...but they are officially called the king only after a proper coronation ceremony I think....till then they are referred to as Prince.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hmmm, IDK, all of this sounds logical, reasonable and something I can easily see happening, but there is that premise that Ned knew what he will find there. And that is what I have the problem with. I am not certain that Ned knew exactly about Lyanna and her pregnancy. So, we have to include another element - Ashara(or whoever told Ned where to look). Given that GRRM told us that they had ships in Starfall and that Ashara wasn't nailed to one place, perhaps she was the one to tell Ned where his sister is. I guess your entire post is dependent on who told Ned where is Lyanna, and what information Ned was privy before he met with KG.

I have absolutely zero doubt that Ned knew exactly what he would find there. Him taking so few men (he had to know he'd be facing Kingsguard; so why not bring dozens of men, when his seven could have plausibly been defeated and almost were?) indicates that he wanted as few people as possible to know what they found there, and he took only people he trusted. His entire dialogue with the Kingsguard is basically him feeling around and either trying to confirm what he suspects or trying to goad the Kingsguard into admitting it, or both.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

yes Ned was being polite and the KG did not correct him..because Jon/Viserys might be the king...but they are officially called the king only after a proper coronation ceremony I think....till then they are referred to as Prince.

The king is dead, long live the king. The coronation is good PR and makes it "official," but I don't think the KG needed a coronation to know who their king was, nor do I think they'd make that distinction if Ned called Viserys by an incorrect title.