TOJ

[aceluby]

My interpretation is that even if he's the king in waiting, he's not the king until a ceremony making it so goes through. It's easier to say 'prince' than 'king in waiting' IMO.

[Mladen]

I have absolutely zero doubt that Ned knew exactly what he would find there. Him taking so few men (he had to know he'd be facing Kingsguard; so why not bring dozens of men, when his seven could have plausibly been defeated and almost were?) indicates that he wanted as few people as possible to know what they found there, and he took only people he trusted. His entire dialogue with the Kingsguard is basically him feeling around and either trying to confirm what he suspects or trying to goad the Kingsguard into admitting it, or both.

Perhaps I have the problem with Ned being so intelligent with his words to feel around Kingsguard. Yes, logically, why going with 6 men, when you don't know what you are facing? Ned obviously expected three Kingsguards, but there could have also been someone else. So, apparently he knew exactly what he is facing with. And I imagine if he knew about whom he will face there, he had to know also what he will find there. Yes, I get it know... You have a point. And, following that logic, there is also a narrow circle of people who could have informed Ned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps I have the problem with Ned being so intelligent with his words to feel around Kingsguard. Yes, logically, why going with 6 men, when you don't know what you are facing? Ned obviously expected three Kingsguards, but there could have also been someone else. So, apparently he knew exactly what he is facing with. And I imagine if he knew about whom he will face there, he had to know also what he will find there. Yes, I get it know... You have a point. And, following that logic, there is also a narrow circle of people who could have informed Ned.

Not only is Ned not surprised by what he finds there, the Kingsguard don't seem at all surprised to see Ned show up. I think Ashara Dayne is your clear common denominator there.

[grand old duke of stark]

This makes sense.

As presented, there's a sense of inevitability about the whole encounter, almost to the point where the outcome seemed pre-determined as well. Yet Ned keeps on saying he expected to find them other places, which contradicts that. The eerie and slight non-sequitur quality of this passage might be attributed to the fact that it's a fever dream brought on by Ned's wound and milk-of-poppy. This is a shame, because it's possible that some of the accuracy of the whole episode could be compromised as a result. I wouldn't put it past GRRM to do that.

[alienarea]

Or Ned simply said Prince Viserys because that is what he is used to call him for some time. Old habits die hard.

[finger]

They were all being polite... and hiding what they knew.

Ned rebelled against Aerys to safe his own head, but he didn't hate the Targ family. Even time after, he didn't hate Rhaegar or Daenerys, whose killing he tried hard to avoid.

The KG's king was AEGON, not Viserys, but they wouldn't give him away, they skipped the issue.

[The Fallen]

But he wasn't, not for Viserys. That's the idea.

Absolutely. He's referring to them by the titles they held at the time. Hence Rhaella as queen and her son Viserys as prince.

The gist of Ned's statements was "give it up, it's over". In a way, he was offering them an out. It's a stretch to say that Ned knew that Jon was the heir and that's why he hid Jon's true parentage. Ned did it because he knew that Rhaegar was Jon's father and that it equaled a death sentence.

You can debate as to the true meaning of the responses of the three Kingsguards. But it would be stretching it to try to include Ned in the conspiracy of Jon being the next heir. As far as Ned was concerned, the Targaryen dynasty was over.

[therustman]

Viserys is immediately King upon Aegon's death.

Regardless of why Ned used the term - politeness, the fact he had been born a Prince so technically it maybe he keeps the title, not to inflame a tense situation or to feel out the KG's for me it is the lack of correction from the KG that is key.

There is no way they would let that go and they know it's coming down to a fight the KG aren't worried about ratcheting up the tension.

[SkaggCannibal]

As if Ned would see Jon as the next heir... No way he would think of a polygamous marriage as a legitimate one. Bad enough some people on the board believe it, but not the Ned. He has morals.

[Ygrain]

As if Ned would see Jon as the next heir... No way he would think of a polygamous marriage as a legitimate one. Bad enough some people on the board believe it, but not the Ned. He has morals.

I'm sure you can provide a quote where Ned thinks Aegon's marriage to both his sisters abominable/illegal/dishonourable/whatever, right? No? Then what do you base your assumption on, other than your own perception of morals?

ETA: Come to think of it, can you provide any quote of anyone bashing polygamy?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

"Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him"

Thats from the chapter, where robert dies

I doubt he knew they were there, but they probably confirmed his biggest fear. My guess is he's trying to convince himself they are on Dragonstone.

[WhiteOwl18]

I'm sure you can provide a quote where Ned thinks Aegon's marriage to both his sisters abominable/illegal/dishonourable/whatever, right? No? Then what do you base your assumption on, other than your own perception of morals?

ETA: Come to think of it, can you provide any quote of anyone bashing polygamy?

Precisely. There are plenty of quotes bashing, say, incest, but not one, by anyone about polygamy. Which indicates that even though it's not a common practice, it's not something that people would really oppose.

[alienarea]

Precisely. There are plenty of quotes bashing, say, incest, but not one, by anyone about polygamy. Which indicates that even though it's not a common practice, it's not something that people would really oppose.

That logic has a flaw. Because there aren't any quotes bashing for example beastiality, which indicates ...

You get my point?

[complexphoenix]

The TOJ three were there because they were ordered to be there. Even if Lyanna didn't have a baby, their presence would still not be a mystery. Even though their first duty is supposedly guarding the king, in practice the KG do as they are told, just like everyone else who's sworn to serve. Rhaegar had every right to tell them to guard Lyanna with their lives, no matter what, so they did as bid.

And no, I don't think Ned had any inkling. And because it's a fever dream anyway that isn't meant to be a literal recollection, only an approximate one, it's silly to sweat over the meaning of any specific line or word in the text.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Viserys is immediately King upon Aegon's death.

Regardless of why Ned used the term - politeness, the fact he had been born a Prince so technically it maybe he keeps the title, not to inflame a tense situation or to feel out the KG's for me it is the lack of correction from the KG that is key.

There is no way they would let that go and they know it's coming down to a fight the KG aren't worried about ratcheting up the tension.

Exactly. There is no way that these guys wouldn't correct Ned if he had gotten the title wrong.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The TOJ three were there because they were ordered to be there. Even if Lyanna didn't have a baby, their presence would still not be a mystery. Even though their first duty is supposedly guarding the king, in practice the KG do as they are told, just like everyone else who's sworn to serve. Rhaegar had every right to tell them to guard Lyanna with their lives, no matter what, so they did as bid.

And no, I don't think Ned had any inkling. And because it's a fever dream anyway that isn't meant to be a literal recollection, only an approximate one, it's silly to sweat over the meaning of any specific line or word in the text.

1. The first graf explains what they were doing there up until they learned that Rhaegar, Aegon and Aerys were dead. It does not in any way explain why they were still there once they learned that those three were gone.

2. At some point you have to draw a line and make some educated guesses as to how seriously to take the dream. If all of it can or should be thrown out the window, then debating it at all becomes useless.

Absolutely. He's referring to them by the titles they held at the time. Hence Rhaella as queen and her son Viserys as prince.

And at THAT TIME, to THESE MEN, Viserys SHOULD have been the king. Not the prince. That's the entire point.

You can debate as to the true meaning of the responses of the three Kingsguards. But it would be stretching it to try to include Ned in the conspiracy of Jon being the next heir. As far as Ned was concerned, the Targaryen dynasty was over.

It's not about whom Ned thinks is the heir, but whom the Kingsguard believe it to be. And the point is, it's obviously not Viserys. Even if Ned doesn't plan to press for Jon's rights, which he obviously doesn't given how it all turned out, there is some distinction between Jon being Rhaegar's bastard and him being Rhaegar's legitimate son. It makes him much more dangerous to Robert, for instance, and ups the ante on Ned to protect him. Even though Ned doesn't plan to put up Jon as the Targaryen king, it does matter if other Targaryen loyalists might see him as such.

[WeaselPie]

Not only is Ned not surprised by what he finds there, the Kingsguard don't seem at all surprised to see Ned show up. I think Ashara Dayne is your clear common denominator there.

And how is Ashara the link? How did that happen, that both Ned and the KG at the ToJ expected each other?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And how is Ashara the link? How did that happen, that both Ned and the KG at the ToJ expected each other?

It's actually extremely straightforward. I think that after the Sack, when the Targ cause was pretty much lost, Ashara tipped off Ned (whom she apparently knew and possibly had a fling with at Harrenhal) as to where he'd find his sister, while at the same time telling the guys at the Tower of Joy (one of whom was her brother) that Ned was en route. That Ned showed up to the Tower when he did, despite apparently not knowing where to find Lyanna before, strongly implies that someone told him where to find her. The Kingsguard show pretty much no surprise to see Ned arrive, equally implying that they were told to expect him. Ashara is the most obvious link between the two parties, as Ned's alleged former lover and as Arthur's sister. The fact that it ended how it did, with the parties fighting each other and Arthur dying, adds an extra element of tragedy to the scene if in fact Ashara was the tip-off -- she would have provided Ned with the information that led directly to her brother's death. She might have expected them to hand Lyanna over and retreat, for example; it's possible that she didn't expect a fight and was wracked with guilt after it had happened.

[WeaselPie]

It's actually extremely straightforward. I think that after the Sack, when the Targ cause was pretty much lost, Ashara tipped off Ned (whom she apparently knew and possibly had a fling with at Harrenhal) as to where he'd find his sister, while at the same time telling the guys at the Tower of Joy (one of whom was her brother) that Ned was en route. That Ned showed up to the Tower when he did, despite apparently not knowing where to find Lyanna before, strongly implies that someone told him where to find her. The Kingsguard show pretty much no surprise to see Ned arrive, equally implying that they were told to expect him. Ashara is the most obvious link between the two parties, as Ned's alleged former lover and as Arthur's sister. The fact that it ended how it did, with the parties fighting each other and Arthur dying, adds an extra element of tragedy to the scene if in fact Ashara was the tip-off -- she would have provided Ned with the information that led directly to her brother's death. She might have expected them to hand Lyanna over and retreat, for example; it's possible that she didn't expect a fight and was wracked with guilt after it had happened.

Not that straightforward, but OK.

So Ashara double-crossed (or double-informed) Ned and Arthur so they would meet, and one or both would likely die? Why would she do that? Why would she expect her brother Arthur, one of the most respected KG and knights in Westerosi history, to just hand over whomever they were guarding? Did she have that little faith in her brother?

Did she think they would be BFF's and refrain from fighting? How in the world would she think getting them all together would not result in tragedy?

Or maybe just maybe Ashara had another reason for getting them together, and that is how Howland stopped Arthur from killing Ned. Just a thought.

Or maybe it didn't happen that way at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not that straightforward, but OK.

So Ashara double-crossed (or double-informed) Ned and Arthur so they would meet, and one or both would likely die? Why would she do that? Why would she expect her brother Arthur, one of the most respected KG and knights in Westerosi history, to just hand over whomever they were guarding? Did she have that little faith in her brother?

Did she think they would be BFF's and refrain from fighting? How in the world would she think getting them all together would not result in tragedy?

Or maybe just maybe Ashara had another reason for getting them together, and that is how Howland stopped Arthur from killing Ned. Just a thought.

Or maybe it didn't happen that way at all.

I explain right there in the post you're quoting that I don't think she expected them to fight or for Arthur to die. (It helps to read something before you make an attempt to respond to it.) Rather, I think she thought Ned deserved to know what happened to his sister, and that since the cause was lost, the men at the Tower might be willing to surrender or at least treat with Ned. Bear in mind that Selmy had already surrendered and been treated well by Robert; there was precedent.

And actually, the way Ashara is said to have died makes substantially more sense (or at least, becomes more tragic) if she provided information that led to her brother's death, underestimating the Kingsguard's resolve.

I'm actually confused as to why you are so confused about Ashara being the obvious link, given her apparent history with Ned and the fact that Arthur was her brother. Is it that hard to see?