A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[Sansa_Stark]

Those P2P topics are reaching imo.

Honestly, anyone can find "depth" and symbolism in pretty much anything if they put the time into it.

[Jasta11]

You can write about Cersei being a feminist (character) or you can analyze how GRRM's writing is feminist using Cersei's characterization as an example.

The former essay will be very short and get you'll failed. Because Cersei doesn't think women are equal to men. She thinks she is equal to men. That is self-interest and vanity, not feminism. If your teacher knows ASOIAF or just GOT, they'll pick up on that no matter how much you disguise it.

The latter is insofar not a bad idea since Cersei is one of the few major female character whose moral trajectory is very much predictable (unlike the other major female characters who are not zombies.) That makes her static enough to get a good grasp on how GRRM intents her to be read.

But that's the part where it gets problematic. Cersei is written as a villain. If you want to come to conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist (and you sound like that) you'll need to look at more than the fact that she is an unusually complex character for genre fiction and GRRM's work repeatedly passes the Bechdel Test. You'll need to analyze what tools GRRM employs to portray her as unsympathetic and villainous - and if any of them are anti-feminist stereotypes, tropes, or language. (i.e. slut-shaming).

The thing is... You might find that GRRM does employ those things to make her unsympathetic. If that was the result of your analysis, you will not come to the conclusion you appear to want. Cersei is an unsafe character in that regard. If you safely want to come to the conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist, you should probably pick Catelyn as focal character. She is equally static but is portrayed as flawed rather than full-on cartoon villain and thus relies less on tropes and stereotypes and thus gives less opportunity for those tropes to be anti-feminist.

Very well put.

Personally, Cercei would be the last character I would use for a feminist reading/analysis of the series, purely because she's obviously written as, if not evil, then extremely unsympathetic, and if not crazy, then very short-sighted and selfish. These things are also independant of the fact she's a woman, but they can very easily taint any analysis of her because such a huge part of her character development is how much of a selfish asshole she is/is turning into. Catelyn, Arianne and Arya seem much better candidates to me, even if they have problems of their own.

[rmd]

Let's face it, a large amount of people already think feminists are crazy, selfish, stupid, irrational bitches. Why choose a character that embodies those traits to link with feminism?

Slightly OT, but personally I don't think Martin did a great job with Cersei's characterization, compared with say, Tyrion and Jaime. She could have been much more interesting, funny etc, but she's so one-dimensional. While I can identify with and recognise parts of most other characters in either myself or people I know, I don't know anyone who thinks like Cersei IRL. And I'm a beautiful woman with 3 kids so you know... if anyone should be able to, I should :)

[Sansa_Stark]

Let's face it, a large amount of people already think feminists are crazy, selfish, stupid, irrational bitches. Why choose a character that embodies those traits to link with feminism?

Slightly OT, but personally I don't think Martin did a great job with Cersei's characterization, compared with say, Tyrion and Jaime. She could have been much more interesting, funny etc, but she's so one-dimensional. While I can identify with and recognise parts of most other characters in either myself or people I know, I don't know anyone who thinks like Cersei IRL. And I'm a beautiful woman with 3 kids so you know... if anyone should be able to, I should :)

I think it's because Cersei has such a strong following with a huge amount of the feminist ASOIAF fanbase or something.

I really wouldn't consider her a feminist character. I think she is insane and with little redeeming qualities.

[DominusNovus]

Honestly, anyone can find "depth" and symbolism in pretty much anything if they put the time into it.

... Joe Biden eating a sandwich

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I don't think she is "crazy". I think saying that makes room for excusing her behavior. She is paranoid and has a lot of psychological problems and is definitely a sociopath but the atrocities she commits are the result of her lack of empathy and cruelty not due to insanity.

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't think she is "crazy". I think saying that makes room for excusing her behavior. She is paranoid and has a lot of psychological problems and is definitely a sociopath but the atrocities she commits are the result of her lack of empathy and cruelty not due to insanity.

I am one of the biggest Cersei bashers here and I label her crazy. I don't think it excuses her behavior, she was just born a nasty seed is what I'm saying.

ie people try to attribute Cersei's behavior because of the "men who ruined her" I attribute Cersei's behavior to........Cersei herself

[Florina Laufeyson]

As far as she knows, Tyrion killed her son and her father and escaped using secret tunnels in the walls-of course she's scared he'll come back.

THE ELDRITCH SCRATCHINGS OF TYRION IN THE WALLS!!

Sounds like shes borderline....

You can write about Cersei being a feminist (character) or you can analyze how GRRM's writing is feminist using Cersei's characterization as an example.

The former essay will be very short and get you'll failed. Because Cersei doesn't think women are equal to men. She thinks she is equal to men. That is self-interest and vanity, not feminism. If your teacher knows ASOIAF or just GOT, they'll pick up on that no matter how much you disguise it.

The latter is insofar not a bad idea since Cersei is one of the few major female character whose moral trajectory is very much predictable (unlike the other major female characters who are not zombies.) That makes her static enough to get a good grasp on how GRRM intents her to be read.

But that's the part where it gets problematic. Cersei is written as a villain. If you want to come to conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist (and you sound like that) you'll need to look at more than the fact that she is an unusually complex character for genre fiction and GRRM's work repeatedly passes the Bechdel Test. You'll need to analyze what tools GRRM employs to portray her as unsympathetic and villainous - and if any of them are anti-feminist stereotypes, tropes, or language. (i.e. slut-shaming).

The thing is... You might find that GRRM does employ those things to make her unsympathetic. If that was the result of your analysis, you will not come to the conclusion you appear to want. Cersei is an unsafe character in that regard. If you safely want to come to the conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist, you should probably pick Catelyn as focal character. She is equally static but is portrayed as flawed rather than full-on cartoon villain and thus relies less on tropes and stereotypes and thus gives less opportunity for those tropes to be anti-feminist.

The thing is that Cersei can be used as an example of a feminist extreme. The extremist viewpoint that no matter what, a female clawing her way up is a sign of empowerment, despite the immoralities applied. I would mention Cersei in an essay about feminism and modern fiction for this reason. Also because her plight and consequences address feminist issues. Cersei's wishing to be treated equal (but she applies the extreme in that she only wants it for herself), her protectiveness of her children (the extremist maternal figure. My Beloved Smother), and very importantly, the consequences of her actions. Her Walk of Shame should be explored because it touches on a wider problem of how women are viewed in general. We see her brought down in what seems like a satisfying way, until we really look at what's going on in that chapter. The reasons why Cersei is doing the Walk in the first place is....something to make note of in an essay about feminism.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Arya is what feminists all want to be but are to insecure to master. She doesn't give a fuck what people think while most of the others put too much stock in others' opinions.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Arya is what feminists all want to be but are to insecure to master. She doesn't give a fuck what people think while most of the others put too much stock in others' opinions.

Whoa...feminist are insecure? Wow. I think I just won't go there. However, realize that feminism isn't just female badassery. Just because a woman rejects her traditional role doesn't make her a feminist. Arya is a fantastic character who embodies some of the characteristics of a feminist, I just think you got off at the wrong station on this train of thought.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Here is my take on feminism: BOOBS ARE THE SHIT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgDC3FUpMuQ

You are all welcome

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Here is my take on feminism: BOOBS ARE THE SHIT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgDC3FUpMuQ

You are all welcome

You really like that video, don't you?

[Roddy the Ruin]

You really like that video, don't you?

yes. Yes I do. And I am not ashamed of it either

[TalalOfDorne]

While I think Cersei is a great choice, Id go with Cat, Dany, or Asha and Arianne if you dont mind minor POVs.

[TalalOfDorne]

Asha doesn't really speak feminist considering her father raised her like a son, it wasn't her choice.

I dont think even the sons have a choice in the way their parents raise them. In fact, in some cases, the daughter/son will turn out completely different despite the parents approach (Arya, Sam...)

[FoolishOwl]

I've seen some good advice in this thread, particularly from Winter's Knight and WeirwoodTreeHugger.

If I were to write about Cersei for a student essay, I would focus on what happens to her near the end of A Dance With Dragons, when the Faith publicly humiliates her, specifically attacking her gender and her sexuality, in order to destroy her political power and reassert orthodox rules about power, gender, and sexuality. I had generally found Cersei an unsympathetic character, and yet in that section of the novel, I was moved and saddened, and it was painful to read. This suggests to me that Martin had done quite a lot of work to build up to that moment.

[Sansa_Stark]

Honestly, while I didn't enjoy the WoS, I can't in good conscience say I found it uncomfortable to read or felt bad for Cersei.

Think about all of those who suffered because of her greed.

Think about all those thousands who died in the WotFK because of her vanity.

Think about all of those dwarves who died because of her.

Think about all of those people sent to Qyburn to be experimented.

Think about all of those who may starve because of winter.

Think about Robert's bastard daughter Barra, who was more than likely killed out of spite rather than because she was a "threat" of any kind.

Mostly all on Cersei really(the WoTFK was only mostly her fault). What she suffered in the WoS was absolutely nothing compared to what others have suffered because of her.

[SeanF]

I've seen some good advice in this thread, particularly from Winter's Knight and WeirwoodTreeHugger.

If I were to write about Cersei for a student essay, I would focus on what happens to her near the end of A Dance With Dragons, when the Faith publicly humiliates her, specifically attacking her gender and her sexuality, in order to destroy her political power and reassert orthodox rules about power, gender, and

sexuality. I had generally found Cersei an unsympathetic character, and yet in that section of the novel, I was moved and saddened, and it was painful to read. This suggests to me that Martin had done quite a lot of work to build up to that moment.

I agree. I expected to have no sympathy at all for Cersei in that chapter. In the event, I found the whole thing creepy and nasty, and felt sorry for her.

[SeanF]

Honestly, while I didn't enjoy the WoS, I can't in good conscience say I found it uncomfortable to read or felt bad for Cersei.

Think about all of those who suffered because of her greed.

Think about all those thousands who died in the WotFK because of her vanity.

Think about all of those dwarves who died because of her.

Think about all of those people sent to Qyburn to be experimented.

Think about all of those who may starve because of winter.

Think about Robert's bastard daughter Barra, who was more than likely killed out of spite rather than because she was a "threat" of any kind.

Mostly all on Cersei really(the WoTFK was only mostly her fault). What she suffered in the WoS was absolutely nothing compared to what others have suffered because of her.

It's the element of degradation that makes it such an unpleasant read. If the chapter had been about Cersei being sent to the Block, I'd have thought it a fitting end for her.

Cersei's a pretty awful person. That doesn't mean that she deserves *absolutely anything* that happens to her. If she was burned, or crucified, or forced to watch her children being fed to a dragon, it would be a horrible read.

[Sansa_Stark]

Well I guess I just have a lot less sympathy than some others.

I mean, rereading Theon's Reek chapters, I don't really feel much pity for the guy as much as I wonder why he's not as badass as Inquisitor Glokta.