Why die at the Tower of Joy? v. 2

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So we can continue this conversation :)

[Skagosi High Chef]

So we can continue this conversation :)

:cheers:

@Ygrain: a better scenario.

There are many better scenarios. First to not expect anyone to come and base your strategy on that is foolish. Rhaegar had men with him did he not, or was the prince traveling alone? He could have left archers and outriders for scouting to give warning who was coming. This would have been reasonable measures against random raiders as well. If there were no alternative to fighting the seven they could have left a man in the doorway, one on the steps and one guarding Lyanna's room, preventing two on one combat. Rhaegar should have provided a maester long before. They should have plans with contingencies depending on who happened upon the TOJ. As KG, their mission is to protect, not fight, fighting is just one aspect. They could have brought Ned into the tower and perhaps aligned with him if it was optimal for their mission, or killed him, leaving the six without leadership and forcing one to leave for help. They could then kill the other five or escape with the baby. To stand and die was the least intelligent option as it was a failure, also it prevents them from remaining as protectors for whoever was left.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Skagosi Chef, I think it is important to remember that Rhaegar doesn't have men of his own. At least, it isn't mentioned. He could have taken gold cloaks or guards from the Red Keep, but those answer to Aerya before they answer to Rhaegar. I always thought that was why Rhaegar only took two close and trusted, loyal friends with him.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Skagosi Chef, I think it is important to remember that Rhaegar doesn't have men of his own. At least, it isn't mentioned. He could have taken gold cloaks or guards from the Red Keep, but those answer to Aerya before they answer to Rhaegar. I always thought that was why Rhaegar only took two close and trusted, loyal friends with him.

Would that in itself not be foolish if he wished to succeed? I think you are also neglecting the fact that Rhaegar would have had men more loyal to him than his father, men followed his father out of respect, but they loved him. He was the heir and the King would not live forever. It was poor planning on his part.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Would that in itself not be foolish if he wished to succeed? I think you are also neglecting the fact that Rhaegar would have had men more loyal to him than his father, men followed his father out of respect, but they loved him. He was the heir and the King would not live forever. It was poor planning on his part.

No, Aerys would not live forever, but he was still in good health, and I think the people in KL (who would be closer to his mad outbursts than other) feared him more than they respected him. I suspect (but am in no way certain) that most soldiers would fear Aerys' wroth should they follow Rhaegar. The fact that Aerys mistrusted his son can't have been such a hidden secret, and servants love to gossip :)

[Anath]

No, Aerys would not live forever, but he was still in good health, and I think the people in KL (who would be closer to his mad outbursts than other) feared him more than they respected him. I suspect (but am in no way certain) that most soldiers would fear Aerys' wroth should they follow Rhaegar. The fact that Aerys mistrusted his son can't have been such a hidden secret, and servants love to gossip :)

Then how exactly was Rhaegar planning to carry out his little coup, aka deposing Aerys? Would he rely on the hosts of various lords alone? I have no doubt that he was going to do it legally and so on but he would still need military strength.

[Skagosi High Chef]

I should not have said respect, but duty, and yes fear most of all. Some men don't scare easily though and would hope Rhaegar would ascend the throne sooner rather than later. But what is more to the heart of this matter for me is that secrecy was paramount over protection. That is on Rhaegar. Was his secret more important to him than the lives of Lyanna and his child?

[BryndenTullys#1fan]

So R only had 3 friends in the whole 7 kingdoms for which to protect L?

She's made out to be Helen of Troy, I would have had a small army guarding her and the future J.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Then how exactly was Rhaegar planning to carry out his little coup, aka deposing Aerys? Would he rely on the hosts of various lords alone? I have no doubt that he was going to do it legally and so on but he would still need military strength.

I should not have said respect, but duty, and yes fear most of all. Some men don't scare easily though and would hope Rhaegar would ascend the throne sooner rather than later. But what is more to the heart of this matter for me is that secrecy was paramount over protection. That is on Rhaegar. Was his secret more important to him than the lives of Lyanna and his child?

So R only had 3 friends in the whole 7 kingdoms for which to protect L?

She's made out to be Helen of Troy, I would have had a small army guarding her and the future J.

I never said Rhaegar only had 3 friend in the entire 7K. :p

Support for his coup Rhaegar would have found amongst various lords, who would bring their own bannermen, for as far as those would follow their liege against their king. But support for his taking Lyanna, and guarding her... he could hardly expose those plans before actually doing so, right? So he would have had to look at soldiers in KL. And those were close to Aerys and his madness, and would most likely fear Aerys too much to go against him.

That was the point I was trying to make.

[Skagosi High Chef]

I never said Rhaegar only had 3 friend in the entire 7K. :P

Support for his coup Rhaegar would have found amongst various lords, who would bring their own bannermen, for as far as those would follow their liege against their king. But support for his taking Lyanna, and guarding her... he could hardly expose those plans before actually doing so, right? So he would have had to look at soldiers in KL. And those were close to Aerys and his madness, and would most likely fear Aerys too much to go against him.

That was the point I was trying to make.

As far as all of that goes, I agree with you. The point I am trying to make, is one not in opposition to yours, it is just that he was wealthy, powerful, popular and charismatic. He could have acquired help wherever he went, he chose not to do so, for whatever reason. I am sure one day we will know those reasons, but analyzing it now, it seems he valued secrecy over protection. That was either foolish, or selfish.

[Ser Creighton]

Then how exactly was Rhaegar planning to carry out his little coup, aka deposing Aerys? Would he rely on the hosts of various lords alone? I have no doubt that he was going to do it legally and so on but he would still need military strength.

Call a great council.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As far as all of that goes, I agree with you. The point I am trying to make, is one not in opposition to yours, it is just that he was wealthy, powerful, popular and charismatic. He could have acquired help wherever he went, he chose not to do so, for whatever reason. I am sure one day we will know those reasons, but analyzing it now, it seems he valued secrecy over protection. That was either foolish, or selfish.

I'd sooner call Rhaergar's plans foolish, than selfish, since we don't know what he was thinking.

Call a great council.

Perhaps we'll learn more about great councils in the world book this year. If so, we could perhaps indicate better how Rhaegar's chances for a great council succeeding were.

But a Great Council would be a rather peaceful solution, :)

[Anath]

Call a great council.

Having host of his own kind of ensures his safety during the great council.

At the council, not everyone would be on his side. The idea that the Crown Prince could rely only on the hosts of his father's bannermen for deposing him is not defensible. Each and every lord could decide to change sides. Mercenary, a host at Dragonstone, a unit of his own at King's Landing - Rhaegar had to have something. It wouldn't be an ordinary great council called to decide the succession. It would aim to take a ruling king off his throne. Common sense indicates that it would not be as peaceful as the previous great councils. It would be really stupid of Rhaegar to leave himself entirely on the lords' mercy.

[Ser Creighton]

Having host of his own kind of ensures his safety during the great council.

At the council, not everyone would be on his side. The idea that the Crown Prince could rely only on the hosts of his father's bannermen for deposing him is not defensible. Each and every lord could decide to change sides. Mercenary, a host at Dragonstone, a unit of his own at King's Landing - Rhaegar had to have something.

Well that's the point of the council to talk about things, that's why it's a great council. The army he was leading to the Trident was his. He assembled that host, not the King. The King was busy planting wildfire everywhere and burning his Hand, raping his wife, being generally crazy. You have the option of winning a war that they were losing, killing the mad king, imprisoning the mad king, or calling a council.

It's easily defensible everyone knew his father was crazy, Rhaegar was one of the last to admit it. You think the Lords liked crazy Aerys?

[Anath]

Well that's the point of the council to talk about things, that's why it's a great council. The army he was leading to the Trident was his. He assembled that host, not the King. The King was busy planting wildfire everywhere and burning his Hand, raping his wife, being generally crazy. You have the option of winning a war that they were losing, killing the mad king, imprisoning the mad king, or calling a council.

It's easily defensible everyone knew his father was crazy, Rhaegar was one of the last to admit it. You think the Lords liked crazy Aerys?

Rhaegar intended to overthrow Aerys before the war - JonCon confirms that Rhaegar admitted Aerys' madness before the Lyanna drama and Aerys cooking lords in their armour.

It would not be like the previous great councils. They were called when the succession was clearly disputed. We aren't taking about succession here, we're talking about a personal decision of Rhaegar's involving potential bloodshed with the King's host. He would be wise to be prepared for a few obstacles.

[Aetta]

As far as all of that goes, I agree with you. The point I am trying to make, is one not in opposition to yours, it is just that he was wealthy, powerful, popular and charismatic. He could have acquired help wherever he went, he chose not to do so, for whatever reason. I am sure one day we will know those reasons, but analyzing it now, it seems he valued secrecy over protection. That was either foolish, or selfish.

I'm with you on this-Futhermore, if he and Lyanna wanted to have their fling, they could have just had it.

Remember that Cersei fears Robert will set her aside if he learned the truth about Jaime & her. Never does she say that her family would usurp the throne over her being replaced by another queen. She seems to fear the opposite, that she'll be the big loser and Robert will go on as king. So, it stands to reason that Rhaegar could expect to set Elia aside-hell, he could make something up about her- and while Dorne might hate him, would they wage war over her?

Then, remember that Aerys took liberties with Joanna without fear of Tywin. Now, Aerys was creepy, but the point remains that Rhaegar had no reasonable expectation that Robert Baratheon would topple the entire kingdom over Lyanna, just as Aerys didn't fear that Tywin would topple the kingdom over Joanna or any of the other slights.

He'd have to get Aerys permission to set Elia aside, you say? OK. Aerys could have salivated over such a proposition as Lyanna, and could have made Dorne a thousand promises of marriage in the future. When else were they going to get the opportunity to integrate with the North in such a way? Additionally, just because Rhaegar puts Elia aside does not mean Aerys has to return her to Dorne. This is the mad king we're talking about, and he loved hostages.

But, all of the above is just not the Rhaegar we know. He's not the guy that maliciously takes, or the guy that slights others to get his rocks off, he's not even the guy that argues with his dad. That was Aerys II, not Rhaegar, right?

We're lead to believe Rhaegar was just not that ballsy, arrogant or flagrant. He didn't want to assert his power as the Crowned Price in that manner, even though he may have been able to pull a 2nd marriage off without the consequence of war. This could speak of honor but if he's so damned honorable, why wasn't he home with his wife? It could speak of prophesy, we don't know anything more about that. Maybe he knew war was brewing, and didn't want to mess with such a delicate balance by being overt.

I am very into the Rickard/Rhaegar coup, it just explains more to me and is more like Rhaegar.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68872-rhaegar-and-rickard-partners-in-coup/

The Rhaegar we think we know would have worked with Elia, not cast her aside for Aerys to hold hostage.

The Rhaegar we know would have asked Lyanna's hand in marriage proper, with the blessings of Rickard and Jon Arryn.

The Rhaegar we know would mark Lyanna with his blue wreath of protection at the tourney.

The Rhaegar we know would have deposed Aerys with a level head.

But we don't know this dude. So, foolish or selfish in the end, maybe he should have taken door #1 and just been flagrant about the whole thing. It would have been complicated but not untenable. Or, maybe there was a coup and he thought he was being honest and could soon be flagrant, in the measured way he was accustomed.

[MtnLion]

So, we are imagining things that are not supported in the text, to make Rhaegar be foolish of selfish? What we do know is that he entrusted Lyanna's protection to three, count them, three of the best most honorable men that he could. No less than he took with him into battle. They were in a secret location, and he fully believed that he would return after putting down the mild insurrection that his father had only made worse.

Those three were safe in their secret location, until someone told Ned where to find his sister. When Ned arrives he takes just his most trusted men, six of them, count them, six and Ned. There is a short discourse, during which Ned offers to accept their surrender and when they refuse to surrender a possible retreat to Dragonstone. These three, out of honor, citing their vow as Kingsguard insist on fighting. That is the reason that they died at the tower, for honor.

[mambru]

But, all of the above is just not the Rhaegar we know. He's not the guy that maliciously takes, or the guy that slights others to get his rocks off, he's not even the guy that argues with his dad. That was Aerys II, not Rhaegar, right?

We're lead to believe Rhaegar was just not that ballsy, arrogant or flagrant.

The trouble is that I think we really don't know Rhaegar all that well. We have the third-hand testimony of a few people, mostly biased: Robert who loathed him, JC who was in love with him, Aemon who was his granduncle or something, and Barristan, who felt obligated to give the most favorable view of the Targaryens to Dany, and hemmed, hawed and hesitated the same way over saying nice things about Rhaegar as when he said nice things about Aerys - obviously holding a lot back. The only one who has a view of Rhaegar without an obvious bias is Ned, who has apparent reasons to hate him but actually seems to view him somewhat favorably in the privacy of his own head. The trouble with Ned is that he doesn't tell us (for plot reasons) what exactly Rhaegar did to earn that relatively favorable opinion. IMO, it could just be accounted for by the probable fact that he knew Lyanna had been seduced, not raped, and also because Rhaegar had been extremely charismatic on the occasions that he had met him. IMO, we can't assume Rhaegar was NOT arrogant from what we know of him. And actually I think the evidence indicates he WAS.

I mean, he read the prophecies that one of his bloodline would be a mighty warrior and save the world from a hideous zombie apocalypse. Now, his "bloodline" could refer to Rhaegar himself - OR it could refer to his great-great-grandchildren a century from then. But he decided it referred to HIM. Now if I read and believed that someone of my bloodline - maybe me - would have to face an apocalypse that would kill millions of people, and would be a mighty warrior that would engender three "heads of the dragon" that would be instrumental in fighting off the end of the world - well, speaking strictly for myself, I would absolutely NOT ever touch a sword again, and take up some unwarlike hobby like manuscript illumination to go with my harp-playing, AND do my best to make sure I had no more than two children. If the fulfilment of the prophecy brings on the Apocalypse, I would do my best to AVOID fulfilling the prophecy requirements. Let some other mighty descendant of mine and some distant future world deal with the Zombie Apocalypse generations from now, not the human beings I know in THIS world and my own poor children.

But Rhaegar read that and said "Awesome! I'm the hero that will save the world! I better make myself MATCH the prophecy!" and did his best to do exactly that. We know that he was interpreting the prophecy wrong, and IMO he interpreted the prophecy in a way that favored and glorifed himself out of arrogance - the conviction that HE was somebody extra-special who was DESTINED for the heroic role of World Savior.

IMO, a man who had the arrogance to imagine himself in that role and to WANT it would have the arrogance to decide that if he had the hots for the Stark girl and thought the prophecy said he needed a third child Elia couldn't give him, then it was DESTINY that he sweep Lyanna off her feet and run away with her from their families and his responsibilities and everything would turn out all right despite the problems such an elopement would cause - it was PROPHECIED and he was the SAVIOR. And when he is finally summoned to deal with the civil war, he had the arrogance to decide to immobilize 3 KG in a place where they had no way to get to the king and Rhaegar's family without ignoring Rhaegar's orders, while he rides off to battle, wins, and comes back - because to Rhaegar it's INCONCEIVABLE that the Destined Savior of the World could lose the battle.

I mean, can you imagine the conversation between Rhaegar and the ToJ 3?

Rhaegar: Hightower, I order you and your men to stay here and guard Lyanna from all comers while I ride off and defeat this Usurper in battle. You will stay here till I come back victorious and tell you you can leave.

ToJ 3: But Your Grace, what if you lose? The Usurper has defeated Targaryen forces twice already. One more battle lost and KL will be in danger, and the King, AND your Lady Mother and brother, and your - er - other Lady Wife, and your children, and without your permission we cannot leave to try to protect them in such an event.

Rhaegar: Me? Lose? Absurd. I'm the prophesied Savior. Don't worry about it, and do as I say.

ToJ 3: ...(Rhaegar rides off)...oh, shit...

[Skagosi High Chef]

for honor.

I agree MtnLion. I know that they died for honor. I have said so in previous posts on this thread. But it was still foolish.

[finger]

No, Aerys would not live forever, but he was still in good health, and I think the people in KL (who would be closer to his mad outbursts than other) feared him more than they respected him. I suspect (but am in no way certain) that most soldiers would fear Aerys' wroth should they follow Rhaegar. The fact that Aerys mistrusted his son can't have been such a hidden secret, and servants love to gossip :)

If fact, BS tells to Daenerys that Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar. He also says that Rhaegar had understood that his father was crazy at the end. My catch is that his illness had gone worse with time, but this is not the point now.

Also, when Rhaegar said goodby to Jaime, he announced changes at his come back. I don't remember Jaime ever thinking of Lyanna, so Rhaegar should be referring to Aerys.

It hard to assess how far went the rumour, but we know it was founded.