Maester cressen, not what we think?

[DominusNovus]

He's a Maester, they

1 - follow the 7, or at least work closely with them and

2 - dislike/ distrust/ outright hate magic

Since the Red God is both not one of the 7 and also a magical religion, it makes sense that a Maester wouldn't like or trust one of their priestesses. Also, Mel is a religious fanatic that had already turned Seylese, who had become a bitch to Cressen, and was starting to turn Stannis, whom Cressen seems to genuinely love as a son.

In conclusion, there's no reason for Cressen to not dislike or distrust Mel.

Plus, he likely was well acquainted with the general natures of R'hllor worship, and concerns about black magic aside, probably didn't look forward to the idea of offering up human sacrifices to a fire god.

Even if it does work.

[Nictarion]

Dislike and distrust are all well and good (I guess) but Cressen went straight to attempted murder. I never thought about it but the only thing Mel has done at this point is put the hat on him (which Stannis, who Cressen thinks of as a son, allows). Cressen attempted to claim her life over humiliation...not that cool dude.

And burn the idols of the 7. People get touchy about being told what religion to worship.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

And burn the idols of the 7. People get touchy about being told what religion to worship.

It was wood we burned today, Ser Nictarion.

[E-Ro]

Dislike and distrust are all well and good (I guess) but Cressen went straight to attempted murder. I never thought about it but the only thing Mel has done at this point is put the hat on him (which Stannis, who Cressen thinks of as a son, allows). Cressen attempted to claim her life over humiliation...not that cool dude.

This is pretty much my point. I knew this thread would be hard to swallow, but its the truth. Cressen wants to KILL someone, over nothing but suspicions.

[DominusNovus]

This is pretty much my point. I knew this thread would be hard to swallow, but its the truth. Cressen wants to KILL someone, over nothing but suspicions.

How many characters in the series don't want to kill someone?

[Thucydides]

ASoIaF has many, many people expressing regret over not killing someone, and only a few people expressing regret over actually going through with it.

I credit Maester Cressen with being a man of action who has few regrets.

[E-Ro]

How many characters in the series don't want to kill someone?

Fair point, tis just casts the man in a different, less positive light I think.

ASoIaF has many, many people expressing regret over not killing someone, and only a few people expressing regret over actually going through with it.

I credit Maester Cressen with being a man of action who has few regrets.

Hard to have regrets when your dead.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Dany Girl, on 04 Jan 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

He's a Maester, they

1 - follow the 7, or at least work closely with them and

2 - dislike/ distrust/ outright hate magic

Since the Red God is both not one of the 7 and also a magical religion, it makes sense that a Maester wouldn't like or trust one of their priestesses. Also, Mel is a religious fanatic that had already turned Seylese, who had become a bitch to Cressen, and was starting to turn Stannis, whom Cressen seems to genuinely love as a son.

In conclusion, there's no reason for Cressen to not dislike or distrust Mel.

Exactly this.

[sertravisredbeard]

I mainly felt sorry for him as an old man whose usefulness had faded. Even though Stannis still loved him like a father, his antics in his only chapter didn't leave a whole lot of room for admiration. Stannis told him he didn't need to be around, most of the time he went up or down steps he endangered himself. Stannis would have provided for him and taken care of him into his old age if given the chance.

I've always been kind of 50/50 on Melisandre, but she gave Cressen a chance to back down and not try to kill her with poison. She's done some questionable things but defending herself against a doddering old relic that was in over his head wasn't one of them.

I can see where you're coming from with saying he was misogynistic and xenophobic. They're just more reasons for me to grimace and shake my head when reading about Cressen.

[KingRhaegar]

This is a thread to discuss measter cressen. We first meet him in clash, and he seems like a really intelligent wise old man that served the baratheons very well all his life. HE feels like a father to Stannis. All that is well and good. But in this prologue we also meet mel. Maester cressen doesn't like her, and, he never says why. He just doesnt.

I was thinking about this recently, try to figure out, why doesnt he like mel? Until i figured it out. He has no reason to dislike mel. He is an xenophobe, or a misogynist that doesn't like a woman being held in such high esteem by Stannis. OR worse, he is both of those things.

Think about it, he has absolutely no reason to dislike her, let alone any reason at all to try and kill her. What was he thinking, and why should we feel bad for him? Quite frankly, he just seems like an asshole to me. All he complains about in the passage is how she is a woman and a foreigner.

So, ladies and gentlemen its time to rethink cressen, and what exactly his issue with mel is.

Keep it civil please.

I think it's because of:

1. Maesters distrust sorcery, AFFC made this plain

2. She had an unnatural control over him and he felt that her influence would send him to an early grave

[KingRhaegar]

What's funny is that ACOK's prologue is one of my favorite chapters, much resting on Cressen's feelings toward being a father to Stannis.

[BitsOfBrains]

Yeah I think it was the whole cult indoctrination/brain washing thing.

I had a cousin who was brainwashed into a cult. We all tried to talk some sense into him and get him to come back.

Now he is living in Colorado, is part owner of a successful construction company, and lives in a mansion with three mormon wives, 2 of whom are hot and like half his age.

I guess he got the last laugh on that one.

[DominusNovus]

Yeah I think it was the whole cult indoctrination/brain washing thing.

I had a cousin who was brainwashed into a cult. We all tried to talk some sense into him and get him to come back.

Now he is living in Colorado, is part owner of a successful construction company, and lives in a mansion with three mormon wives, 2 of whom are hot and like half his age.

I guess he got the last laugh on that one.

Doesn't sound like much brainwashing was necessary...

[DaarioDontKnowSoftwareBugs]

Umm what's the name and address of that cult.

[LuisDantas]

(...)

I was thinking about this recently, try to figure out, why doesnt he like mel? Until i figured it out. He has no reason to dislike mel. He is an xenophobe, or a misogynist that doesn't like a woman being held in such high esteem by Stannis. OR worse, he is both of those things.

Think about it, he has absolutely no reason to dislike her, let alone any reason at all to try and kill her. What was he thinking, and why should we feel bad for him? Quite frankly, he just seems like an asshole to me. All he complains about in the passage is how she is a woman and a foreigner.

So, ladies and gentlemen its time to rethink cressen, and what exactly his issue with mel is.

Keep it civil please.

Unlikely on the extreme. For one thing, being a xenophobe and a mysoginist is par of the course in Westerosi society.

Even if we assume that Cressen is way more extreme than most, his peers (including Stannis and Davos) would be aware of it, having known him for so many years.

As for lacking reason to dislike her, I assume you are kidding or perhaps did not consider that what we learn about her influence later is not all that different from what she must have done previously to ACOK's prologue.

[GallowsKnight]

I agree Israel. One aspect I was struck by was how Stannis ordered him to wear the crown. Cressen says Stannis does not understand mockery anymore than humor, or something to that effect, that too was part of showing how Stannis may have changed or become more cruel under Mel's influence.

I've always thought that it was actually Stannis trying to avert Mel's foretelling of Cressen's death. Remember she knows he's going to try and poison her, why wouldn't she tell Stannis about it to prove her powers?

So Stannis doesn't summon Cressen to the feast, but he stills turns up. So Stannis tries to make him leave, he doesn't give him a spot at the table and when his wife mocks him, Stannis goes with it, trying to get Cressen to leave. Finally he outright tell Cressen "I will not have you kill yourself in my service."

The irony is however all of these attempts galvanise Cressen into taking the drastic action he sees necessary.

[( Bloodraven )]

This is pretty much my point. I knew this thread would be hard to swallow, but its the truth. Cressen wants to KILL someone, over nothing but suspicions.

He's old and like most old people he feared change. He probably saw Stannis change too much and too soon after Mel arrived, and the whispers around Dragonstone about the red woman and her religion didnt help... Maester Cressen was just being a protective papa bear to Stannis. :frown5:

[Thucydides]

I've always thought that it was actually Stannis trying to avert Mel's foretelling of Cressen's death. Remember she knows he's going to try and poison her, why wouldn't she tell Stannis about it to prove her powers?

So Stannis doesn't summon Cressen to the feast, but he stills turns up. So Stannis tries to make him leave, he doesn't give him a spot at the table and when his wife mocks him, Stannis goes with it, trying to get Cressen to leave. Finally he outright tell Cressen "I will not have you kill yourself in my service."

The irony is however all of these attempts galvanise Cressen into taking the drastic action he sees necessary.

That's a very shrewd inference. I like it

[Harzoo]

I'll join the chorus who believe that Cressen's beef with Mel was mainly about Religion... I also don't think that he was wild about Stannis --whom he had known since he was a child-- had become a cuckold to some woman from across the sea

"Cuckold" has a very narrow meaning -- namely, a man whose wife has cheated on him. His laying with Melisandre would not make him one.

Skagosi High Chef, on 05 Jan 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

I agree Israel. One aspect I was struck by was how Stannis ordered him to wear the crown. Cressen says Stannis does not understand mockery anymore than humor, or something to that effect, that too was part of showing how Stannis may have changed or become more cruel under Mel's influence.

Well Stannis was like that from his childhood. Remember Steffon's letter.

Stan the Man, I think what the bolded portion means here is that young Stannis did not know humor or mockery -- meaning that him using mockery as an adult was an unusual departure from his character, as if he had all of a sudden started using humor.**

**But, of course, Stannis is very funny in his own way.

[Harzoo]

I've always thought that it was actually Stannis trying to avert Mel's foretelling of Cressen's death.

(snip)

Whoa