Ser Leftwich Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 We have become familiar with the phenomenon of Varys telling the truth, but more of a truth that his conversation companion wants to hear. eg: The "youth from the Vale" discussion with Ned; Ser Hugh and Petyr Baelish. There are other instances, but I can't think of another example. Here is another possible example: "Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her.” "Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands." ACoK p. 276 Varys already knows that Tyrion believes that Clegane killed Elia and the baby. He is reinforcing what Tyrion already believes to be the case, but at the same time not telling the full truth. What if this is actually a clue about some other name that Elia might cry in those circumstances, besides the name of her attacker? Elia could have cried "Aegon!", because someone had made the switch and Elia recognized that her son was gone. From the above quote, Varys's little birds were near enough to have heard Elia. Which means they would have been close enough to have made the Pisswater Prince switch. ETA: (Edited the quote to look better.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Varys could be lying or he could be making a bigger deal out of the name than it is. What is so secret about it, if it is common and real knowledge that Clegane was the one that did it? Everyone also knows who sent him to do the did: Tywin. It also could have easily have been the name Rhaenys when you think about it. It is likely when everything starting happening in the castle or even a little while before that she ran off and before Elia could find her her door was being broken open and if she knew she was about to die then she knew that Rhaenys was about to die and was hoping someone would get Rhaenys away. Truthfully it could be anything or Varys is a big fat liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Someone put up a theory that she cried for Arthur as she was secretly in love with Arthur Dayne. I personally don't buy that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Someone put up a theory that she cried for Arthur as she was secretly in love with Arthur Dayne. I personally don't buy that theory.i personally wouldn't mind it, it would add more dimensions to his peerless character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 Someone put up a theory that she cried for Arthur as she was secretly in love with Arthur Dayne. I personally don't buy that theory. I have not read that one. But it does lead to further crackpottery. (or is it cracked pottery?) That Varys began to say "Aegon" himself, "A... certain name...." as opposed to "a... certain name....," but caught himself. Though Varys misspeaking seems very unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmendrick Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 From the above quote, Varys's little birds were near enough to have heard Elia. Which means they would have been close enough to have made the Pisswater Prince switch. It's certainly possible. But it's equally possible that Varys' agents were instead eavesdropping when Gregor and Lorch made their reports to Tywin. As far as the "certain name" goes ... yeah, there's something fishy about the way Varys says that. Lots of possibilities there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I wonder what sort of birds stay and watch a woman getting her child killed and then raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 I wonder what sort of birds stay and watch a woman getting her child killed and then raped. Slave informants that might be killed at any time by Varys. What point is there in making value judgements about the little birds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 It's certainly possible. But it's equally possible that Varys' agents were instead eavesdropping when Gregor and Lorch made their reports to Tywin. As far as the "certain name" goes ... yeah, there's something fishy about the way Varys says that. Lots of possibilities there. Would Lorch and Gregor even think to mention a name to Tywin? Would they remember a name? They are more bludgeons, than scalpels. Little birds being within hearing range of Elia is a perfectly possible scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi High Chef Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Varys and his riddles. As smart as Tyrion is, he didn't seem a match for Varys. I think Varys was looking to Tyrion for an ally and was always testing him, and others, like this to measure their perceptiveness. I am never one to defend Rhaegar much, I feel like he abandoned his children, which is inexcusable to me regardless of reason. But I always wonder if their was some tension between him and Elia which may have caused some of the things that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 There are two things to keep in mind when considering this passage. The first is that Varys had two types of "little birds". The first is the tongueless children that crept through the walls of the Red Keep. The second is paid informants. The first type is unknown to most of the people in the story. The second are the "little birds" that Cersei says now report to Qyburn. Qyburn and Cersei have no idea about the children (think of how freaked out Cersei would be with that knowledge). The second thing to keep in mind is that there is precisely one secret passage in Maegor's Holdfast (a passage so the king can escape the holdfast if necessary). From what the Wiki says about Maegor's Holdfast in tPatQ, that secret passage is in the king's chambers (I haven't yet read tPatQ). Elia and Aegon were attacked in the nursery and Rhaenys was killed in Rhaegar's bedchamber. So neither of these killings happened close to a secret passage for the first type of "little bird" to hear. Therefore, the "little bird" who reported what happened when Elia was killed was of the second type, either a servant or soldier who survived the situation. When speaking of his "little birds" to other people Varys does not distinguish between the two, because he does not want people to know that the first kind even exists. As to the name that Elia called out, it could have been Aegon. If Aegon had been taken from her shortly before Gregor burst in, she might not have been certain if Varys had actually gotten him out yet. Thus, she may have been worried about him. Then again, she could have called out another name. It is hard to know. I think it probably was Aegon, but we will probably also find out eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I agree that it's a fishy way to word it. I don't see it as evidence of the baby switch, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassBlackfyre Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 "Hodor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 "Hodor" /thread Go home everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmendrick Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Would Lorch and Gregor even think to mention a name to Tywin? Would they remember a name? They are more bludgeons, than scalpels. Maybe and maybe not. Depending on what the name was, it might have been something even a cretin like Gregor would think was unusual or important ("Strangest thing ... she cried 'Hodor' just as we burst in"). And whether or not they thought of it, Tywin is certainly capable of asking smart enough questions to elicit the name. In fact, all he would have to ask is what did Elia do when you burst in? and the answer would be she screamed _____'s name. Little birds being within hearing range of Elia is a perfectly possible scenario. I agree that it's possible. I just don't think it can safely be assumed from what you quoted, because the quote doesn't rule out other scenarios that are (at least) equally possible. In other words, I'm saying "Varys's little birds were might have been near enough to have heard Elia." That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 "Hodor"NEW CRACKPOT EVERYBODY!Elia was Hodor in Drag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 varys does many subtle things like this through the books. When he speaks of the sack to Ned in the dungeons he only mentions rhaenys being killed, and does something to the very same effect in Clash. Its sorta the same thing as when he tells a dying kevan of aegon and his soon to be conquest. These shouldn't be taken as and aren't reasons for aegon being real, but should be seen as evidence oft the physiological genius and extreme gamesmanship that belong to varys. He's been planning aegon for a while now, and in effort to convince both others and himself he treats the lie like the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Was the name Jaime? Maybe she thought that it might have some weight, considering that her attacker was from the Westerlands. He was also from the KG. Slave informants that might be killed at any time by Varys. What point is there in making value judgements about the little birds? Well... we can assume that Elia could have been saved, but Varys wanted her dead, so he could pass off another child as hers. I don't see this as evidence for fAegon being real, quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well... we can assume that Elia could have been saved, but Varys wanted her dead, so he could pass off another child as hers. I don't see this as evidence for fAegon being real, quite the opposite. You know, this is a good point. Whether the real Aegon got out or not, Elia would know and as such, Varys couldn't keep her alive anyway because she'd know too much. If Gregor hadn't killed her, Varys probably would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Fishy way to word it indeed. But even if the reader figures out it was "Aegon" (if it was Aegon), this wouldn't make much sense to the aforementioned reader untill it's revealed (f)Aegon lives, so I don't think that's it. So what's the certain name, any guesses? Or at least, what is the thing Varys suggests in the first place, that later could prove to be something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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