yolkboy Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Dragons and their wings are often associated with shadows, it seems to me - AFfC, Samwell III Shadows on the snow, heh. Yeah that's interesting, shadows and dragons does seem to come up. And we get shadows again (specifically white) for Others and Ghost. And look what Sam says about Aemons dreams... He’s talking about bleeding stars and white shadows and dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think the OP is proposing that Aerys saw a vision of a dragon rising from destruction, and that this dragon is actually Jon. However, Aerys misinterpreted it to mean that he should burn KL, and by doing so he'd be reborn as a dragon, literally. So the action Apple's proposing here is that Aerys had the dream and chose to burn KL, thinking he'd be reborn. Aerys wouldn't realize the dragon in the dream is not literal, but is a symbol for a Targ, in particular, Jon. In terms of broader ramifications, it seems the consensus is that it serves as another clue of Jon's parentage. You aren't the OP. PS the OP's title is that Aerys foresaw Jon's birth. Clearly your answer is at odds with the OP's premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You aren't the OP. I'm not sure I understand why that matters. I answered you because I had just asked Apple and J Star similar questions to the ones you were asking, so I knew the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yeah that's interesting, shadows and dragons does seem to come up. And we get shadows again (specifically white) for Others and Ghost. And look what Sam says about Aemons dreams... I noticed the same. There's definitely something going on with shadows. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm not sure I understand why that matters. I answered you because I had just asked Apple and J Star similar questions to the ones you were asking, so I knew the answer. You are not RoboCop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm not really sure how this wouldn't be subtle. In fact, it's apparently so subtle that a lot of people are insisting quite vehemently that they don't see the connection. :) What I meant was - all of them are in-story subtle. I'll put it this way: 1.what's the purpose of Dany seeing blue rose at the Wall? - to nudge the reader towards considering R+L=J 2. what's the purpose of scenes where Ned remembers how he lied of 14 years? - so that reader could connect Ned's narration with Jon's date of birth and conclude Ned is maybe lying about being Jon's dad 3. what's the purpose of Meera's KOTLT's story? - amongst many other things, to provide a backstory and more clues towards R+L=J 4. and what's the purpose of Aerys' wildfyre plot? - to massively propel a story forwards, to force the actions of several other characters, to provide crucial information about Jaime's character, to show to what extents Aerys' madness has gone... And if you put all of that into a service of yet another R+L=J clue - well, then all of the above suddenly drastically diminishes in importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I have a stupid question : is it known for a fact that Aerys died before Aegon?"“The castle is ours, ser, and the city,” Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King’s Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that." ASoS p. 159 Jaime seems to think that Lorch and Clegane had not reached their victims until after Aerys was dead. Not sure if there is another source of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 "The castle is ours, ser, and the city, Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegors Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the Kings Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that." ASoS p. 159 Jaime seems to think that Lorch and Clegane had not reached their victims until after Aerys was dead. Not sure if there is another source of information.This is what came to my mind, too. I remember it was up in the air before I rediscovered this Jaime passage, which does seem to indicate, barring further contradiction, that Aerys died first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 PS the OP's title is that Aerys foresaw Jon's birth. Clearly your answer is at odds with the OP's premise. You should probably stop basing your arguments off of a thread title because the first post of the thread clearly elaborated what she meant with that title and it is very much exactly what Butterbumps has said it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 PS the OP's title is that Aerys foresaw Jon's birth. Clearly your answer is at odds with the OP's premise. no it's not. Apple proposed that Aerys had a dream that foretold Jon's birth, but misunderstood it such that he didn't know it was Jon's birth he was seeing. It's kind of like how Patchface foretold the RW without necessarily understanding that it was the Red Wedding, or how Mel sees Bloodraven's face without knowing his identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Butterbumps is not the OP, but I am, and she clearly gets the gist of what I was saying even if she disagrees with some of what it's proposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 "“The castle is ours, ser, and the city,” Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King’s Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that." ASoS p. 159 Jaime seems to think that Lorch and Clegane had not reached their victims until after Aerys was dead. Not sure if there is another source of information. Thanks for your answer, but for me even in this instance it is not that clear that Aegon died after Aerys. As for true / powerful Dragons casting large shadows, only two characters have been described doing so IIRC: Jon... and Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 What I meant was - all of them are in-story subtle. I'll put it this way: 1.what's the purpose of Dany seeing blue rose at the Wall? - to nudge the reader towards considering R+L=J 2. what's the purpose of scenes where Ned remembers how he lied of 14 years? - so that reader could connect Ned's narration with Jon's date of birth and conclude Ned is maybe lying about being Jon's dad 3. what's the purpose of Meera's KOTLT's story? - amongst many other things, to provide a backstory and more clues towards R+L=J 4. and what's the purpose of Aerys' wildfyre plot? - to massively propel a story forwards, to force the actions of several other characters, to provide crucial information about Jaime's character, to show to what extents Aerys' madness has gone... And if you put all of that into a service of yet another R+L=J clue - well, then all of the above suddenly drastically diminishes in importance. I know, I was just having a little fun. As for the bold, I don't agree. I don't believe that possibly adding to the R+L=J mountain of evidence negates the other aspects of the wildfire plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thanks for your answer, but for me even in this instance it is not that clear that Aegon died after Aerys. That's fair; it'd be nice to have it corroborated. Nonetheless, it's all that we have and it suggests that Aerys died first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 What I meant was - all of them are in-story subtle. I'll put it this way: 1.what's the purpose of Dany seeing blue rose at the Wall? - to nudge the reader towards considering R+L=J 2. what's the purpose of scenes where Ned remembers how he lied of 14 years? - so that reader could connect Ned's narration with Jon's date of birth and conclude Ned is maybe lying about being Jon's dad 3. what's the purpose of Meera's KOTLT's story? - amongst many other things, to provide a backstory and more clues towards R+L=J 4. and what's the purpose of Aerys' wildfyre plot? - to massively propel a story forwards, to force the actions of several other characters, to provide crucial information about Jaime's character, to show to what extents Aerys' madness has gone... And if you put all of that into a service of yet another R+L=J clue - well, then all of the above suddenly drastically diminishes in importance. well 1. Blue Roses are Winterfell Maidens, not Stark Bastards, despite them being associated exclusively with Lyanna 2. He is obviously lying. There are promiseS not just a promise 3. the KoTLT story is to prep Bran for his journey North. It is a story for Bran, just as all stories/prophecies are meant for their recipients. If you partially believe The Winterfell Huis Clos (and that guy is smart). Val's brooch is a weirwood pin, which connects Winterfell/Lyanna with a matriarchal line North of the Wall. 4. Well said! And you are right about "IN-STORY." There is far too little interpretation of events/prophecies/histories/foreshadowing as they relate to the subject/context of the POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You should probably stop basing your arguments off of a thread title because the first post of the thread clearly elaborated what she meant with that title and it is very much exactly what Butterbumps has said it was. You should probably stop telling me what to ask the OP who posted the OP. You aren't the OP either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You should probably stop telling me what to ask the OP who posted the OP. You aren't the OP either. Neither are you. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thanks for your answer, but for me even in this instance it is not that clear that Aegon died after Aerys. The only other avenue is logic concerning the layout of the RK: The throne room is likely easier to reach than getting into Maegor's Holdfast. Again, we do not know definitively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The only other avenue is logic concerning the layout of the RK: The throne room is likely easier to reach than getting into Maegor's Holdfast. Again, we do not know definitively. Well, the fact that Ned was leading his troops through the King's gate at that time pretty much blurs the timings and even suggests that Gregor is on his very final phase of scaling the Keep by that time IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 And you are right about "IN-STORY." There is far too little interpretation of events/prophecies/histories/foreshadowing as they relate to the subject/context of the POV.Could you phrase this another way? I do not understand what you are trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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