Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth?

[Krugal]

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Nice first post, with lots of food for thought.

Thank you!

Did anyone else read my post (it's on page 9)? I guess I posted it at a time in the thread when it was easily missed, but being a first time poster I'm kind of curious about responses.

[Jô Maltese]

Thank you!

Did anyone else read my post (it's on page 9)? I guess I posted it at a time in the thread when it was easily missed, but being a first time poster I'm kind of curious about responses.

I did and liked your idea of linking the 'fire arousing' effect with a 'dragon making' plan.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

What if Aerys had a prophetic dream of a dragon hatching out of the ruins of the city, and applied that dream to himself? Rather than Daeron's metaphorical interpretation, Aerys chooses to apply it literally and, given his apparent obsession with dragon imagery and blood purity, believes his dream is in reference to him? That gives him both the inspiration and motive to attempt to burn the city down, if he thought that it was going to happen or that it needed to happen in order to be reborn as a dragon.

... If Aerys is acting out based on some dragon-themed thing, does it not make sense that he could be acting on something he saw in a dream? And might it not equally make sense, given how similar dreams have unfolded in the past, that he was wrong (which would be obvious given what happened) and the vision came to pass in some other way?

Really interesting idea. And there's some textual support for it too.

One of Dany's vision from tHotU (ACoK, Daenerys IV)... Jon's thoughts after he killed the wight in Mormont's solar (AGoT, Jon VIII)...

I always just took this to be foreshadowing that Jon was a "king." But it's interesting that George tied the foreshadowing to Aerys' statement about burning down KL ....

Intriguing thread, folks - at least, as initially planned and received. (I read the first 5 pages or so yesterday and enjoyed it... now I see things have taken a turn for crazy.)

Schmendrick, that's a great connection you make re: the "charred bones and cooked meat." Glad to see you're still working the language angles, since our last exchange about the "wreathe" and the "nimbus."

A question was just asked on the current Heresy thread that I thought dovetailed nicely with this discussion, so I made reference to your posts in response. Thought I'd relay that post here as well, because I'd be interested in whether you folks also see additional connections related to Othor and Jafer. The post that caught my attention was H86, #274, by Amoracchius, copied below:

I wasn't really sure where to post this, but I was rereading some of Jon's chapters in AGOT last night (thanks to the "charred bones and cooked meat" discussion earlier in the thread) and something that happened during his fight with the wight caught my attention.

First, Othor (the wight) gets his arm cut off, then Jon slashes him across face, and the description is awfully similar to the injuries that Tyrion suffers during the Battle of the Blackwater. I apologize for not having my books with me as I write this, but we are told that Othor loses half his nose and has his face cut near in half.

I have zero idea want import this could have, but it struck me as odd that Othor's injury paralleled Tyrion's almost a full book before it happened. Additionally, there could be a parallel between Othor losing his arm and Jaime losing his sword hand (or perhaps the parallel is Othor's "brother" Jafer, whose severed hand was found by Ghost).

Has this been discussed before? Does anyone have any thoughts?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I agree that the castration connection isn't as strong, but there is an overlap there. Though with Egg it was only threatened.

In correction of my previous post, apparently it was Aerion's son who was passed over in the succession, not him. Aerion was only exiled. He actually died in 232, while the Great Council was in 233. Still, I could see Spiteflame, or possibly his son, throwing in with the Blackfyres. The fact that he and Bittersteel both served with the Second Sons might be a clue in that direction too. Though I must admit I haven't researched this at all. Just throwing it out there.

Did their time of service in the Second Sons overlap?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thank you!

Did anyone else read my post (it's on page 9)? I guess I posted it at a time in the thread when it was easily missed, but being a first time poster I'm kind of curious about responses.

I reread it again and I think there's some interesting points you made. Like how Arys's isolation at Duskendale, with very little external stimuli and only his dreams to keep him company, could be part of what compelled his later instability. I find the idea of Targs undone by prophecy, especially prophecy they take to be GOOD for them (e.g. Daemon II) to be intriguing.

I also like your point about how Brandon's death by strangulation seems at odds with Aerys the pyromaniac. Why not burn them in succession? Brandon's death seems sadistic for its own sake, which is certainly possible, but maybe there's something else to it.

[Ser Leftwich]

Did their time of service in the Second Sons overlap?

Probably not. Bittersteel was with the Second Sons for one year before starting the Golden Company. Aerion wasn't exiled until sometime after the events of the Hedge Knight, which was 208 or so. But this is not for certain.

[Ser Leftwich]

I reread it again and I think there's some interesting points you made. Like how Arys's isolation at Duskendale, with very little external stimuli and only his dreams to keep him company, could be part of what compelled his later instability. I find the idea of Targs undone by prophecy, especially prophecy they take to be GOOD for them (e.g. Daemon II) to be intriguing.

I also like your point about how Brandon's death by strangulation seems at odds with Aerys the pyromaniac. Why not burn them in succession? Brandon's death seems sadistic for its own sake, which is certainly possible, but maybe there's something else to it.

Posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant here.

"Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord." AFfC p. 134

This may be of interest. After the Defiance of Duskendale, Aerys does not have Lord Darklyn burned, just beheaded. The extremely unpleasant tortures and then burning is reserved for his wife, Serala of Myr.

I am neither a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but that seemed to me to indicate that Aerys has an issue with women.

Lastly, the imprisonment of Aerys parallels Bloodraven's imprisonment and supposed revelation of something important North of the Wall. What did Aerys realize in his imprisonment?

Bloodraven's went well, Aerys's went badly. "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Lastly, the imprisonment of Aerys parallels Bloodraven's imprisonment and supposed revelation of something important North of the Wall. What did Aerys realize in his imprisonment?

Bloodraven's went well, Aerys's went badly. "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."

Ser Leftwich - I'm interested in Bloodraven's "supposed revelation." Can you point me to a thread or text that talks more about this?

[PrimeRhaegar]

"Dude, sorry you didn't get an answer you like" An Answer! jeeeez lmao THATS THE PROBLEM, nobodys an authority enough to give an answer to any theory other than the greatest writer there's ever been GRRM himself. When did I get an Answer? I got opinions. I remember getting a few opinions. The side of the debate that Appletini is on isn't the ANSWER, just because he has the most posts, its another side and another opinion-an opinion I might add with zero textual evidence. I've "been over" this thread since I first read it im not talking still to try to work out a solution to a thread that's based on a dream that never happened. Of course I cant prove he didn't have a dream, and you couldn't prove to me that the others weren't having a couple thousand year dance party up in the lands of always winter up until GoT. Inability to disprove isn't a reason to believe something true, which is a really common misunderstanding in the majority of people everywhere in their day to day lives and beliefs. I've never came close to posting as many times as I have today and frankly its not because there were interesting threads. It's because I'm attempting to open the eyes of the people of this forum-Your opinions are not more valuable as you post more and more, and their is clearly an agenda when threads like this with 0 evidence go for 200+ comments and then we have things like the tyrion targ-threads that get shut down after a few worthless persnickety comments that involve "there being no textual proof" I've truly never seen a thread with less textual proof get more attention And that's my purpose going forward on these forums now that I've learned all I can from the boards until the next book. Unlike others who's only purpose is to make there opinions as widespread an accepted as possible, while attempting to destroy ones they disagree with

going a bit too far with that bro

[The Mother of The Others]

Of note maybe is that nobody calls Dany a Dragon... but the Mother of Dragons. To be linked with the fact that nobody seems to have dreamt of her as a dragon? This could imply that she will just be essential to hatch (as Nissa Nissa?) the true Dragon (Jon?)?

She's already hatched the true dragons. And if you count Khalisars as kingdoms, two kings were sacrificed to wake the actual dragons! The freaky fetus (by MMD's account) and the adult Khal. So there you go. Someone already has woken into a second life as a winged dragon. The stallion that mounts the world. And....

Dany was conceived the night Aerys literally stood over cooked meat, ash and charred bone (he raped Rhaella right after burning those Stark men). She was spirited away the next morning (dragon "flies" from KL) to be born on Dragonstone, but the conception, timing (depending on when the dream might have taken place), location and flight pertains to her as well.

So the two crisped Stark kings start to look like a successful sacrifice too, in the sense that their life force produced a dragon daughter Daenerys who may or may not be a true dragon in terms of her judgment and prestige, but she was enough of a dragon savant to finally bring flying dragons back to life, and that's what the family was trying for.

This post makes the most sense.

Hilarity.

If Aerys dream showed a dragon being born from the ashes of KL, I would say it does not refer to Jon since he was not born anywhere near there. It refers to something that will happen in the future when KL is burned.

I've got this running thing about there being multiple Azor candidates and Jon & Danny are two of them, so maybe the prophecy has split and they are both the dragon that emerged from Aerys' last days. They probably need to interact to determine what's what so fate can brand one of them Azor. Was Rheagar mistaken to think the child of prophecy (Jon) would need to come from him? Or had Aerys already taken care of that? (Daenerys). Maybe fate itself is also confused by this, and awaits a clear answer from among its AA candidates. So far, I don't know if Dany's behavior on the whole is removing her from AA consideration or solidifying her as a hero who's changing the world. It hangs in the balance. As for future events fulfilling the dream, if Cersei burns down KL and she's really Aerys' daughter, ...... I don't know what that would mean.

[J. Stargaryen]

She's already hatched the true dragons. And if you count Khalisars as kingdoms, two kings were sacrificed to wake the actual dragons! The freaky fetus (by MMD's account) and the adult Khal. So there you go. Someone already has woken into a second life as a winged dragon. The stallion that mounts the world. And....

Rhaego died first, so he wasn't a khal.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Rhaego died first, so he wasn't a khal.

Yeah I don't think Drogo and Rhaego work here. Rhaego died first, and the Dothraki wouldn't have considered him the khal anyway.

Just as the Aerys/Aegon idea hinges on Aerys dying first, the Rhaego/Drogo idea can be dismissed for the same reason.

[Mithras]

Yeah I don't think Drogo and Rhaego work here. Rhaego died first, and the Dothraki wouldn't have considered him the khal anyway.

Just as the Aerys/Aegon idea hinges on Aerys dying first, the Rhaego/Drogo idea can be dismissed for the same reason.

It may be Drogo died first and MMD transplanted the horse's spirit to his body and after that Dany stepped into the tent and Rhaego was wasted.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It may be Drogo died first and MMD transplanted the horse's spirit to his body and after that Dany stepped into the tent and Rhaego was wasted.

Even if you take that as accurate (and I still think it's shaky), that still doesn't make Rhaego a king. That's not how the Dothraki recognize khals. Drogo dying doesn't mean Rhaego inherits the title.

[Lord Rahvin]

While watching a GoT marathon on HBO, oddly this thread came to mind... Maester Pycelle is with the character "Ros", talking about how he watched the Mad King deteriorate into madness. Then he comments, "he use to dream of fire & blood". Couldent help but re-think what the OP was suggesting.

[snowy]

Being one with a slightly addled brain, and spending years reading about many forms of mental illness, I have wondered about Aerys's behaviour and motivations. This theory certainly conforms to a few different illnesses, and when combined with some of the magical qualities present, I can see how many variables would be fuel for the fire. Oh, geez... *groans at her unintentional pun*

Am really, really curious about how it all will unfold and if this theory in any form holds up, assuming the backstory is revealed.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Speaking of ... even though Dany has what could be construed as dragon dreams that could feature literal dragons (she seems to dream about Drogon before he hatches), to my knowledge no one has ever had a dragon dream where Dany was the dragon. Not in the sense that Daeron saw Baelor and Daemon saw Egg and maybe the Ghost of High Heart saw

But who, at this point in the story, would be having prophetic dreams about her? She is the only Targ POV available to have "dragon dreams

[Jô Maltese]

As counterintuitive as it may seem, it was in part this blurriness that made me think that Aerys and Aegon were the two kings. GRRM tends to be vague, especially about timelines, in places where he's doing actual maneuvering (the Sack-to-ToJ timeline is a good example). The more willing he is to nail down specifics, the less likely it is that he's doing something dodgy there; if he were specific about Aerys dying before Aegon, it might give it away. Likewise, if the opposite were true, it would eliminate them outright. I think for now it's meant to be an open question.

ETA: If I recall, Jaime thinks of crowning Aegon after Aerys is dead. Whether it's actually true, he unambiguously thinks Aerys died first.

There is this:

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever.”

(...)

His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?”

“Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.”

aSoS Tyrion VI

Aegon died before Aerys IMO.

[XSarellaX]

There is this:

Aegon died before Aerys IMO.

After Jaime killed Aerys, didn't someone asked him who should be crowned afterwards? IIRC, Jaime briefly considers crowning baby Aegon just to spite the rebels. Unless Jaime didn't know Aegon had already been murdered, it seems like he died after Aerys

[Ser Leftwich]

A thought to do with the new info about Egg's dreams and Summerhall.

Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna went on a bit of a tour/hiding in a few safe places. Not just a slap-dash all out run to the ToJ.

Rhaegar would want to show Lyanna the beautiful sad place of his birth, Summerhall is not that far out of the way, if the eventual destination is Starfall. Lyanna gets pregnant at Summerhall, then they also stop at the ToJ for a bit and that is where her pregnancy starts to show/she realizes. They decide to wait it out there.

It becomes significant in that Jon was conceived at Summerhall.