Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[The Mother of The Others]

triple ugh. But even with this overwhelming force...how is she going to "fix" Meereen?

The eastern project can't just be abandoned, not if she's to have the inspirational worldwide momentum that'd convince the other 2 Targ heads to invite Dannay to join their party at KL. She earns her place on that ticket by fixing the east, somehow, some way. I think she's going to be doing it more organically from now on, from within the east's traditions and power structure, since she'll be on the way out from that region personally. The slaves' religion will have to pick up the heavy load. The fire priests will have to be cleansed by her fire to make them trustworthy public servants after they've been placed in charge of running a continent, and the Khalisars will have to be made honest at Dosh Kaleen (sp), so they'll fall in line with the new order and police it instead of ripping the land apart like they usually do. A change in the traditions of both groups, due to Stormy's world-changing abilities. That's the hope. If we get that, she'd win the election to be the 3rd head in a landslide.

[Gogossos]

I think he wrote himself into a corner and he can't resolve it in a good way. A Slaver's Bay 'happy ending' would to me beggar belief, it would be totally alien to the realism of the series overall, if she leaves it a wreck or some half assed solution like she did in Astapor, then that further dillutes her character as a proverbial good guy.

I think you've set the bar too low and too high and nothing in between. Meereen doesn't have to burn or find itself "happy", both of those suggestions are extremes. As suggested previously the Shavepate can be left in charge, he's not entirely trustworthy but he won't be easily toppled or suddenly reintroduce slavery. I don't see the benefit of the author replaying the Astapor scenario, so leaving someone in charge who's not ideal yet still not a disaster can be a realistic way to go.

[Cas Stark]

I think you've set the bar too low and too high and nothing in between. Meereen doesn't have to burn or find itself "happy", both of those suggestions are extremes. As suggested previously the Shavepate can be left in charge, he's not entirely trustworthy but he won't be easily toppled or suddenly reintroduce slavery. I don't see the benefit of the author replaying the Astapor scenario, so leaving someone in charge who's not ideal yet still not a disaster can be a realistic way to go.

The Shavepate could work, but it seems like a lot of wasted words and actions and we still have a giant battle and lot more words and actions yet to come....and it's going to resolve itself with leaving a guy she could already have left in charge in charge? I just don't like the whole plot line, it's too much of a divergence from the central story, too much detail, with too little payoff and still going. It didn't introduce anyone new who is interesting, it really damaged her character, which may or may not have been his intention, the whole storyline became lost in a wilderness and it's still there. If we're going to leave the Shavepate in charge we could have done that half way through Dance and already had her sailing for Westeros or on the verge by now. It's his world, if he needed the dragons to grow more quickly, they could just grow more quickly, rather than have an entire book's worth of side plot.

[OldGimletEye]

I think you've set the bar too low and too high and nothing in between. Meereen doesn't have to burn or find itself "happy", both of those suggestions are extremes. As suggested previously the Shavepate can be left in charge, he's not entirely trustworthy but he won't be easily toppled or suddenly reintroduce slavery. I don't see the benefit of the author replaying the Astapor scenario, so leaving someone in charge who's not ideal yet still not a disaster can be a realistic way to go.

And here is where I think we can maybe find some common ground on what might happen in Mereen. The Shavepate ruling Mereen might not be the "ideal" solution, but he could prevent Mereen from slipping back into slavery, or at least, it returning to the extreme form that existed under the ancient regime.

I think the Shavepate would have two bases of support. One being the freedman. The other being the minor noble houses that are looking to advance their power at the expense of the more powerful slaving nobility.

[Gogossos]

The Shavepate could work, but it seems like a lot of wasted words and actions and we still have a giant battle and lot more words and actions yet to come....and it's going to resolve itself with leaving a guy she could already have left in charge in charge? I just don't like the whole plot line, it's too much of a divergence from the central story, too much detail, with too little payoff and still going. It didn't introduce anyone new who is interesting, it really damaged her character, which may or may not have been his intention, the whole storyline became lost in a wilderness and it's still there. If we're going to leave the Shavepate in charge we could have done that half way through Dance and already had her sailing for Westeros or on the verge by now. It's his world, if he needed the dragons to grow more quickly, they could just grow more quickly, rather than have an entire book's worth of side plot.

But what is the central story though? I'm as interested in the machinations of the Martells, Tyrells, Lannisters, etc. as the next guy but that is not where the story will end up. Dany was introduced right at the beginning of the series - the 3rd chapter I think - her story was almost telegraphed to reach a crescendo at the Wall, fighting the Others. Martin has specifically held her back from the game of thrones and the war of the five kings for a reason. She is one of 3 major POVs, so she can't just disappear from the books whilst the plot catches up. We "put up" (I actually enjoyed it) with Jon going beyond the Wall, meeting various colourful characters, some dead already, but the objective was to mould Jon into a particular man when he starts fighting the Others. Similarly, we put up with Dany whilst her dragons grow and she interacts with magic and face character/queendom challenges, so that she is a particular woman by the time she fights the Others. What you refer as character damaging will seem as character building and character defining by the end of the series. She needs a believable journey and a set of obstacles to make her the character Martin wants for the series climax.

Martin's story has many moving parts. If Dany had sailed to Westeros within your timetable (with magically growing dragons) where would she have landed? If it's in the Vale, what would that mean for LF, the Lords Declarant, Sweetrobin and Sansa? What happens there would affect the Riverlands and the North. Land in Dorne? So many things happening there with various Sandsnakes, Arianne, Doran, maybe secrets at Starfall and Old Town that need to be revealed only at certain points. How about Iron Islands, Casterly Rock? etc. Martin has to decide where in the story Dany interacts with Westeros, and then coordinate that with what she is up to, as well as sticking to a timeline that would stand up to scrutiny reasonably well. Plus remember he nixed the 5 year gap which would've simplified many of these problems for him. It's tough job and I applaud him for sticking to his guns.

[dpt24]

Isn't it possible she does stay on in Essos? I really want to see her do something in the War of 5 Kings, but it seems to me perfectly reasonable for her to try and become Empress of Essos (or the New Valayrian Empire?) which would give her the potential to really finish the change she is trying to create. To not be too dissatisfying for readers she still could assist Ageon in becoming King of Westeros. Some variation of this idea seems possible because I don't think Dany is going to be willing to let herself become "just the queen" to someone else who is King.

[Cas Stark]

Isn't it possible she does stay on in Essos? I really want to see her do something in the War of 5 Kings, but it seems to me perfectly reasonable for her to try and become Empress of Essos (or the New Valayrian Empire?) which would give her the potential to really finish the change she is trying to create. To not be too dissatisfying for readers she still could assist Ageon in becoming King of Westeros. Some variation of this idea seems possible because I don't think Dany is going to be willing to let herself become "just the queen" to someone else who is King.

No. It is possible she could ultimately leave Westeros and go back to Essos, I would like that actually. It would an insane audience troll to never have her show up in Westeros at all, when this has been her primary goal since book 1. It would be like having Arya stay in Braavos and not come back to Westeros.

[dpt24]

No. It is possible she could ultimately leave Westeros and go back to Essos, I would like that actually. It would an insane audience troll to never have her show up in Westeros at all, when this has been her primary goal since book 1. It would be like having Arya stay in Braavos and not come back to Westeros.

It would be, but Martin made us read half a book (AFFC) with a ton of Ironborn and Dornish stuff in it. The whole Dany plotline has been kind of a troll plotline, I would find it disappointing if it all was for nothing. That said there was a reason why I mentioned the possibility she would assist Ageon or someone else in Westeros but not actually try and claim the throne. Or claim it, decide she really prefers Essos, and give the throne to someone else. Lot's of possibilities.

[Kittykatknits]

<snip for space>

Great essay as usual bb and I absolutely agree with you. I should note that I have not read every post in this thread as I'm hoping to get comments in before it is closed for length. I struggled quite a bit with how to understand Dany as a character after reading Dance. Certainly, Martin's message wasn't just that Dany isn't fit for rulership, her last chapter seemed to scream that point loud enough. Rather than looking at her time in Mereen as learning how to rule, perhaps her time in Essos is learning how to make change happen? In fact, if we look at the steps of change, many of Dany's actions in Essos mirror a change quite well. I suspect that whatever she does in Westeros will have some strong parallels to freeing the slaves. Like you, I have a suspicion it could have something to do with the small folk.

I also want to add that I do not expect to see some dramatic change in government or the complete impact of what Dany's changes will bring. So far, the series has been showing the system as it is, with all of its fragility, breaking apart. In keeping with the final title of the series, it may be that readers will know that Westeros as it has always been will no longer continue even without all of the particular of what the future will be like, bittersweet indeed. Dany is the only character that has the power to bring about the dramatic change, as chaotic as it may be, to make that happen.

Anyways, this was lovely and thank you for posting something wrt Dany that takes conversation from the usual talking points.

Just chiming in to say that I agree with Bumps.

I wonder if Ned's death is symbolic of the death of the Old Ways. He was after all killed by a symbol of his own beliefs-Ice-and for insisting upon clinging to the old chestnut that is patrilinear inheritance.

I like this way of looking at it. Ned is a product of his culture but happens to represent the best of it. The social contract in Westeros dictates that women give up rights and freedoms in exchange for certain protections (chivalry, yes?) and that the noble class is to support the small folk under them. Ned exemplifies this yet he still maintains the prejudices of his time, contrast his insistence that Bran watch a man get his head chopped off with his anger over Sansa, the future queen, being in the court room.

[OldGimletEye]

Well to be fair, Westeros does not have the institutions (rule of law, lawmaking bodies) to effect some kind of non-violent reform at this point. There are some Great Councils once an a while, but eh, those don't really count. I'm also wondering what you think is adequate proof that supports the philosophical notion that violent upheavals can/and do result in more positive outcomes? I question the efficacy that some kind of utilitarian calculus is needed in weighing risk/reward when there is little or no framework or precedent in-universe to conduct such an analysis. It seems that in order for you to view cataclysmic change as a good that we must prove without a doubt that it will bring about something better in all cases; otherwise it's a necessarily bad idea. Is it a question of morality and that by viewing Dany as this agent of change through cataclysmic violence, that she is placed outside the moral sphere beyond our criticism?

You are right. Westeros needs a massive nuclear strike. Maybe something better will sprout from the rubble. But, if it doesn't, it matters not. No calculus needed. Seriously though, I never said it had to be "without a doubt."

Also, you have made me see the analytical error in my misjudgment of the Valyrian conquest of the Rhoynar. I am sure the Rhoynar culture was not perfect. Hence a little destruction might have done some good. Who am I to make an judgement about the probable outcome of that Valyrian conquest, even if I understood reasonably well their intentions and methods?

[Dragon Roast]

But, even with this overwhelming force...how is she going to "fix" Meereen? She either leaves it a smoking ruin or Marting provides some kind of crazy plot twist where a leader emerges and she wins the battle and leaves it in good hands, and that would be like writing suicide, LOL.

I don't think she needs to "fix" Meereen. If she fulfills the role of conqueror like the great conquerors of our history, there will be some cities and cultures destroyed. Even in ASoIaF it is not unheard of for a place to be destroyed from Whitewalls to Castamere as a teaching moment for others.

Old Ghis repeatedly went to war with the old Valyrian Freehold. It seems that any peace with them was unable to last. In the end, the Valyrians destroyed Old Ghis and salted the land. The cultures on SB grew out of Old Ghis. One possibility is the destruction. of some or all of the SB city-states. That would be Dany acting as an old-school-Valyrain change agent. That combined with promoting slave revolts would radically shift the global economy of Esso and--by extension--Westeros.

There are dozens of other ways that her actions could lead to radical change--even if she never sits the IT.

The OP has framed this discussion as a discussion on her change-agent role and not a discussion about the more traditional and well traveled Dany back and forth. I think that is good framing and I would tend to agree with the wild destructive nature of the kind of change that is brought by dragons and fire and blood.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I just wanted to add, another example of a historical character that was an agent of change was Nymeria. She brought over Rhyone customs of an absolute cognatic succession law and this was adopted by the Dornish settlers at that time and has since been implemented in their culture.

[Sansa_Stark]

I like this way of looking at it. Ned is a product of his culture but happens to represent the best of it. The social contract in Westeros dictates that women give up rights and freedoms in exchange for certain protections (chivalry, yes?) and that the noble class is to support the small folk under them. Ned exemplifies this yet he still maintains the prejudices of his time, contrast his insistence that Bran watch a man get his head chopped off with his anger over Sansa, the future queen, being in the court room.

Yeah, because it totally had nothing to do with the fact that Cersei had Bran crippled or the fact that he thought she murdered Jon Arryn.

:bang:

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah, because it totally had nothing to do with the fact that Cersei had Bran crippled or the fact that he thought she murdered Jon Arryn.

:bang:

Yeah, if that actually played in to his reasoning at all, you'd have a point.

[Sansa_Stark]

Yeah, if that actually played in to his reasoning at all, you'd have a point.

Actually it did.

"You forget Jon Arryn. You forget Jory Cassel. And you forget this." He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel."

"He had a duty to Robert, to the realm, to the shade of Jon Arryn...and to Bran, who surely must have stumbled on some part of the truth." (which is why he decides to tell Cersei his discovery in spite of just pretending it doesn't happen)

"You want me to serve the woman who murdered my king,butchered my men, and crippled my son?" (he truly believes that Cersei did have Bran crippled and so do I)

[Kittykatknits]

Actually it did.

"You forget Jon Arryn. You forget Jory Cassel. And you forget this." He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel."

"He had a duty to Robert, to the realm, to the shade of Jon Arryn...and to Bran, who surely must have stumbled on some part of the truth." (which is why he decides to tell Cersei his discovery in spite of just pretending it doesn't happen)

"You want me to serve the woman who murdered my king,butchered my men, and crippled my son?" (he truly believes that Cersei did have Bran crippled and so do I)

Yeah, not the scene in referring too.

[Sansa_Stark]

Yeah, not the scene in referring too.

Yeah it was. You were clearly agreeing with WK post.

What were you referring to then?

[butterbumps!]

There's a few posts I want to respond to when I get a little more time (and hey K3!) but I just want to address the Ned issue.

Ned hadn't wanted to personally serve Cersei in light of what he knew/ believed of her crimes, but in terms of removing her from power and handing the throne to Stannis, with the likely outcome of war in doing so, was exclusively motivated by the fact that her kids "couldn't" remain in power because Robert's true heir was Stannis. In terms of who should be king, he was exclusively motivated in terms of legal customs of succession.

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah it was. You were clearly agreeing with WK post.

What were you referring to then?

I'm agreeing with her thoughts on Ned as symbol of old guard. He is very much a product of his culture, but all the positive aspects of it. The specific scene I am referring too wrt to Ned and Sansa has nothing to do with the sucession or Cersei, he didn't even know the truth of her kids at the time. I'm talking about Sansa witnessing him in the throne room, he felt it was not the place for her. Sansa was supposed to be the future queen while Bran was both younger and the second son. Yet, he could witness a man getting his head cut off.

ETA: hey bb. :) I miss you. And you may have done the impossible - written a post that has made me want to respond to something.

[Sevumar]

I don't think she needs to "fix" Meereen. If she fulfills the role of conqueror like the great conquerors of our history, there will be some cities and cultures destroyed. Even in ASoIaF it is not unheard of for a place to be destroyed from Whitewalls to Castamere as a teaching moment for others.

There are dozens of other ways that her actions could lead to radical change--even if she never sits the IT.

The OP has framed this discussion as a discussion on her change-agent role and not a discussion about the more traditional and well traveled Dany back and forth. I think that is good framing and I would tend to agree with the wild destructive nature of the kind of change that is brought by dragons and fire and blood.

I don't think that reducing Dany's role simply to that of "agent of change/destruction" does the character justice. While warfare or destruction could end up being her largest contributions to the big picture of the story, those actions and her motivations are bound up in issues that cannot easily be separated from her character.

Yes, Dany could take many actions that would lead to changes in Westeros, but most of them are not things that are on her radar at the moment, nor part of the character arc we have followed for 5 books. The change-agent role in itself seems like a necessarily incomplete discussion ignoring important facets of the character.