Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[butterbumps!]

Yes, all of Essos will fall before the glorious Dany Stormborn. And her conquest of it will be completed in about two months before she heads off to take Westeros. And though there will be tons of destruction, when the destruction is done, from its ashes, a newer and better society will emerge, to include the elimination of slavery in Slaver's Bay.

And none of these various factions within Essos will have their own agendas. Their only purpose will be to carry out the wishes of the Silver Queen, who will be able to control all of Essos with her unstoppable armies, which for her apparently there is an endless supply of, while conquring Westeros.

Maybe thats the story. But, it just doesn't sound like the kind of story that would be written by the guy who wondered what Aragorn's tax policy was.

Look, this is exactly the sort of absurd idea I was looking to reject here. In case you didn't realize this, I'm unintentionally pissing off fans who want to Dany restore the Targ line and rule and be the savior of everything, as well as unintentionally pissing off those who are appalled by the notion that Dany might have any sort of virtue in terms of the long-term effect of slavery and on Westeros in general.

The society that emerges might be better or worse in her immediate aftermath, but the point is, that it's changed at all is both interesting and valuable to ASOIAF.

No one is suggesting that Dany will have unanimous support by all factions either in Essos or Westeros. SeanF is pointing to the primed conditions for revolt by various factions in Essos, and has also spoken to how the Red might actually have opposed aims to Dany's depending on what they are.

We are not going to see the ultimate manifestation of either society Dany's touched-- that is, the story will end long before the economic system of Essos is rebuilt and the chaos is ended, and long before we see the smallfolk get the vote. The point is that she's the spark that made either possible, long down the road.

[OldGimletEye]

The society that emerges might be better or worse in her immediate aftermath, but the point is, that it's changed at all is both interesting and valuable to ASOIAF.

And I am not in denial of this.

[E-Ro]

so what is this debate over again?

[OldGimletEye]

But you implied SeanF's possibilities of what might be in store for Essos doesn't matter because *sarcasm* only Dany matters. Well, your sarcastic remark betrays a desire to simplify everyone's arguments because you assume that since they like Dany they must be too simplistic to appreciate the works of a man who "wondered about Aragorn's tax policy."

Feel free to use sarcasm and hyperbole to make your points. I generally have a soft spot for smart asses.

[Lummel]

...We are not going to see the ultimate manifestation of either society Dany's touched-- that is, the story will end long before the economic system of Essos is rebuilt and the chaos is ended, and long before we see the smallfolk get the vote. The point is that she's the spark that made either possible, long down the road.

hmm.

The problem with this approach to my mind is that in the context of a seven volume series covering a relatively short period of time is that there is no "long down the road" beyond debates among the fandom. Unless you happen to be of a Whig dispossession and believe that history is a high road to the glorious present and that a seed will inevitability sprout, grow and produce a liberal democratic fruit with two elected chambers of directly elected representatives of course.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

We are not going to see the ultimate manifestation of either society Dany's touched-- that is, the story will end long before the economic system of Essos is rebuilt and the chaos is ended, and long before we see the smallfolk get the vote. The point is that she's the spark that made either possible, long down the road.

Is she? Will she be? This, for real worls historical events can only be answered decades after, and more often that not, don't cease to generate debate. She has the potential to become such a figure, but I don't think we can conclude that this is, definitely, her role in the story.

EDIT: Lummel got there first!

[butterbumps!]

hmm.

The problem with this approach to my mind is that in the context of a seven volume series covering a relatively short period of time is that there is no "long down the road" beyond debates among the fandom. Unless you happen to be of a Whig dispossession and believe that history is a high road to the glorious present and that a seed will inevitability sprout, grow and produce a liberal democratic fruit with two elected chambers of directly elected representatives of course.

I was flippant in the specifics I named, so I didn't mean to suggest we could argue that democracy occurred literally.

I think we're going to see progress alongside massive disorder, and I suspect that the outcome we'll actually see will amount to "small progress." Which is akin to what's happened in Essos-- it's changed forever, though not necessarily with much current progress, but at least with hints of future progress (news of other slave revolts).

[Jasta11]

hmm.

The problem with this approach to my mind is that in the context of a seven volume series covering a relatively short period of time is that there is no "long down the road" beyond debates among the fandom. Unless you happen to be of a Whig dispossession and believe that history is a high road to the glorious present and that a seed will inevitability sprout, grow and produce a liberal democratic fruit with two elected chambers of directly elected representatives of course.

That's true. Let's remember: there's 2 books to go. Not enough to allow for massive sweeping changes across both Essos and Westeros unless Martin turns the story into overdrive and axes most POVs apart from Dany's.

Plus, eradicating slavery in Essos is... basically impossible on the time-frame. No place has well and truly abandonned slavery so far, and Dany,s been going at it for the two longest books already. Astapor restarted as soon as her back was turned, Meereen is held in a very delicate situation and could easily relapse if she dies, and there seems to be few people with any ideal of emancipation and the influence to enforce it at all. The Unsullied seem to only be motivated by their loyalty to Dany, not any idealogical aversion to slavery as an institution. Tyrion is only out for revenge/Casterly Rock. The mercenary companies don't give two figs. People like the Shavepate seem far more interested in playing their own game of thrones. I see nobody that can, currently, pick up the pieces of Dany's rampages and rebuild them into anti-slavery societies. Maybe the Red Priests, but that's not a given at all.

[Lummel]

I was flippant in the specifics I named, so I didn't mean to suggest we could argue that democracy occurred literally.

I think we're going to see progress alongside massive disorder, and I suspect that the outcome we'll actually see will amount to "small progress." Which is akin to what's happened in Essos-- it's changed forever, though not necessarily with much current progress, but at least with hints of future progress (news of other slave revolts).

oh, you were being flippant! Well that's ok (you closet Whig!) ;)

Well I don't think that anyone disagrees that daenerys isn't stasis. In the context of the story stasis is winter, so there is that I suppose.

[Gogossos]

Plus, eradicating slavery in Essos is... basically impossible on the time-frame.

This is basically the only point of reference in this debate. We will never have a definite answer of how Westeros and Essos turn out in the long term. But something will come out of the chaos that will engulf Essos and Slavers bay (the ingredients for chaos are there). Is the presumption from some that slavery will be returned correct? Definitely Dany will be the spark if a revolution if it takes place but I don't see her flying around on Drogon actually instigating the fight. Most instigation will actually come from R'hllor followers, which as discussed by others upthread makes for an interesting situation because Dany really is not aligned to any religion.

[Cas Stark]

And I am not in denial of this.

I absolutley think she she could leave Slaver's Bay with a positive set up for it's future. Leave Selmy there for military leadership, leave Tyrion there for overall smarts and strategy, leave Shavepate and Missandre there for knowledge of the cultures involved and half of her unsullied army to keep the peace. That would be a pretty fair start to seeing Slaver's Bay emerge better and stronger in the future.

But, she's not going to do any of that. Hence, why I am interested how GRRM is going to get her out of Meereen without further diminishing her as a positive force or writing some unbelievable set of super lucky plot gifts.

[Jasta11]

But, she's not going to do any of that. Hence, why I am interested how GRRM is going to get her out of Meereen without further diminishing her as a positive force or writing some unbelievable set of super lucky plot gifts.

The thing is, I'm afraid said plot gifts are already on the way. Marwyn? Moquorro? Victarion's fleet? The Khalassar? I don't think Martin just made them up for kicks. Dany basically needs external help if she's ever going to simply get out of Slaver's bay and accomplish her ''destiny'' or whatnot; she needs ships to ferry her people around and soldiers to either hold her actual domains or continue on to further conquests. And since she can't really go looking for them, they will have to come to her. Pretty much the only way to untie the Meereenese knot is to dump overwhelming force in Dany's lap, as I see it. Else she's never going to get anything done. It's a big reason why I don't like her arc or where it's going: a lot of that stuff has already happened, and it seems inevitable that, at the very least, the Iron Fleet will side with her. Else she has little chance of finding any ships to get to Westeros.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I very much doubt we are going to see much if any of this, but there are some interesting notions about the R'hillorism, Daenerys and the messiah trope.

It doesn't matter if the prophecy is "true" at all. What matters is that she fits exactly the image of their messiah figure. They have the grounds of an area that desperately needs some change (not because the system there is immoral, mind you, but because it doesn't seem to work well any more - both Slavers bay and Volantis seem to be in deep decadence), they have the organization, they have the ideological influence, they have the power to bring long-term change. What they need is, indeed, a catalyst, in the most literal sense, as an accelerator to change that *must* happen.

The funny thing is that in this case, the sooner she leaves Essos, the better it will work for them. A living, present and human "messiah" cannot actually fulfill that role. Daenerys in flesh and bones has human flaws and weaknesses and, worst of all, ideas of her own. She can't be interpreted. From afar, as a symbol, she can become a perfect ideal.

ETA: The sad thing is, that who she is as a person, what she wants in an individual level and what she envisions for the world around her, her hopes and her motivations, are rendered absolutely irrelevent.

[Cas Stark]

The thing is, I'm afraid said plot gifts are already on the way. Marwyn? Moquorro? Victarion's fleet? The Khalassar? I don't think Martin just made them up for kicks. Dany basically needs external help if she's ever going to simply get out of Slaver's bay and accomplish her ''destiny'' or whatnot; she needs ships to ferry her people around and soldiers to either hold her actual domains or continue on to further conquests. And since she can't really go looking for them, they will have to come to her. Pretty much the only way to untie the Meereenese knot is to dump overwhelming force in Dany's lap, as I see it. Else she's never going to get anything done. It's a big reason why I don't like her arc or where it's going: a lot of that stuff has already happened, and it seems inevitable that, at the very least, the Iron Fleet will side with her. Else she has little chance of finding any ships to get to Westeros.

You could kind of see that she was going to end up taking over a khalissar from even GOT, though, so I am okay with that. It was foreshadowed.

The stupid fleet(s). Ugh. Red priests who can give her visions that help her strategy because she can't come up with it on her own. Double ugh.

Tyrion, one of the smartest people in Westeros who happens to have been obsessed with dragonlore his whole life, triple ugh.

But, even with this overwhelming force...how is she going to "fix" Meereen? She either leaves it a smoking ruin or Marting provides some kind of crazy plot twist where a leader emerges and she wins the battle and leaves it in good hands, and that would be like writing suicide, LOL.

[The Mother of The Others]

Hey you're halfway on the bandwagon with this! This is how I've been viewing Dayneriss for a while.

In the wilderness, she snapped into realizing who she was, and that she's been trying to be someone else for too long. People are interpreting this snap to mean the worst is coming, and it might indeed mean that blood and fire are on the way, but let's not dismiss the possibility that Daenerys will still be fighting the good fight with her new enhanced awesomeness---she'll just be fighting it more competently from now on because she knows her role in history now. Which sets her up for being able to take part in this kind of scenario at the end, instead of crashing and burning.....

(And you may now be closer to being okay with this, given this topic):

the realm being ultimately ruled by the truimvirate of targs we know.

• Aegon could be the face of the operation, after he tosses out Wormtongue, errr, Varys. The people will love him, so you've got the masses right there.
  
• Jon could be the conscience, the one who gives us faith in the new dynasty, knowing it embarks with him at the helm, bringing caretaker experience and heavy decision making skills to the mix.
  
• Daenerys could provide the muscle and the mascots and the flare. She's there as an exotic kickass in case trouble overwhelms the diplomacy (Aegon) and policy (Jon) branches of the new government.
  

That'd be a nifty arrangement, right? (I'm just trying to keep the characters alive, here, people, fer christsakes, + also it'd be cool.)

[Cas Stark]

Hey you're halfway on the bandwagon with this! This is how I've been viewing Dayneriss for a while.

In the wilderness, she snapped into realizing who she was, and that she's been trying to be someone else for too long. People are interpreting this snap to mean the worst is coming, and it might indeed mean that blood and fire are on the way, but let's not dismiss the possibility that Daenerys will still be fighting the good fight with her new enhanced awesomeness---she'll just be fighting it more competently from now on because she knows her role in history now. Which sets her up for being able to take part in this kind of scenario at the end, instead of crashing and burning.....

(And you may now be closer to being okay with this, given this topic):

the realm being ultimately ruled by the truimvirate of targs we know.

• Aegon could be the face of the operation, after he tosses out Wormtongue, errr, Varys. The people will love him, so you've got the masses right there.

Jon could be the conscience, the one who gives us faith in the new dynasty, knowing it embarks with him at the helm, bringing caretaker experience and heavy decision making skills to the mix.

Daenerys could provide the muscle and the mascots and the flare. She's there as an exotic kickass in case trouble overwhelms the diplomacy (Aegon) and policy (Jon) branches of the new government.

That'd be a nifty arrangement, right? (I'm just trying to keep the characters alive, here, people, fer christsakes, + also it'd be cool.)

Ha, ha, you sweet summer child, you know GRRM will never give us something that happy. That would be awesome though, I admit.

I've said before I don't know where he is taking Dany, because there is so much dualty to her character, all of her power is derived from her Targaryen identity, this is why she constantly recites those gd titles 24/7, and maybe her 'blood'. But the 'just Dany' part of her is a nurturing person who wishes to help the oppressed, wants really to kick back, be loved, eat some figs and create something positive. She appears to have embraced the exterior identity that has brought her power and a form of mass love and rejected her internal self, the just Dany identity who is the person who wanted to free the slaves, help the lamb people, have a family w/Drogo and go back to the house with the Red Door.

That's actually pretty sad if you break it down.

[SeanF]

You could kind of see that she was going to end up taking over a khalissar from even GOT, though, so I am okay with that. It was foreshadowed.

The stupid fleet(s). Ugh. Red priests who can give her visions that help her strategy because she can't come up with it on her own. Double ugh.

Tyrion, one of the smartest people in Westeros who happens to have been obsessed with dragonlore his whole life, triple ugh.

But, even with this overwhelming force...how is she going to "fix" Meereen? She either leaves it a smoking ruin or Marting provides some kind of crazy plot twist where a leader emerges and she wins the battle and leaves it in good hands, and that would be like writing suicide, LOL.

Perhaps she leaves the Shavepate behind, to govern in her name. He'd be brutal, but able to keep order, I should think. That's not a happy ending, but not a terrible one, either.

[Gogossos]

You could kind of see that she was going to end up taking over a khalissar from even GOT, though, so I am okay with that. It was foreshadowed.

The stupid fleet(s). Ugh. Red priests who can give her visions that help her strategy because she can't come up with it on her own. Double ugh.

Tyrion, one of the smartest people in Westeros who happens to have been obsessed with dragonlore his whole life, triple ugh.

But, even with this overwhelming force...how is she going to "fix" Meereen? She either leaves it a smoking ruin or Marting provides some kind of crazy plot twist where a leader emerges and she wins the battle and leaves it in good hands, and that would be like writing suicide, LOL.

But those people reaching her isn't the end of it. Those are selfish people going to Dany for their own selfish needs, she'll still need to outplay them in order to get the ships, advice etc. from them without sacrificing too much. You ask how she gets to fix Meereen. I don't see how leaving it a smoking ruin fits Dany's character and you can't see how she can leave her administrator there. So what are the other options in your view?

[Veltigar]

I see Dany pulling a Nymeria on Meereen. Burning it to show that there is only one possible way to go.

[Cas Stark]

But those people reaching the journey isn't the end of it. Those are selfish people going to Dany for their own selfish needs, she'll still need to outplay them in order to get the ships, advice etc. from them without sacrificing too much. You ask how she gets to fix Meereen. I don't see how leaving it a smoking ruin fits Dany's character and you see how she can leave her administrator there. So what are the other options in your view?

I think he wrote himself into a corner and he can't resolve it in a good way. A Slaver's Bay 'happy ending' would to me beggar belief, it would be totally alien to the realism of the series overall, if she leaves it a wreck or some half assed solution like she did in Astapor, then that further dillutes her character as a proverbial good guy.