Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[Nictarion]

I just wanted to add, another example of a historical character that was an agent of change was Nymeria. She brought over Rhyone customs of an absolute cognatic succession law and this was adopted by the Dornish settlers at that time and has since been implemented in their culture.

I think GRRM has said Nymeria is the closest historical character to Daenerys.

[ejhawman]

Whoa. Picked a bad time to miss checking the forum. This thread really got away on me.

Agree entirely with the OP. Dany's time in Meereen is about her trying to do something that readers will think is smart. It ends up demonstrating that she will not win the IT, or at least keep it, and does not need to; she just needs to kick the anthill.

The White Walkers will bring revolution to the North, wiping out much of the population and allowing something new to take root. Dany will do the same to the south. In between they meet and destroy each other, leaving Westeros almost completely ashes. Jon rules a devastated kingdom, but he is the one to make something new and rule as administrator over people who are too exhausted to indulge in their own petty feuds.

Something of a pity. One would think Dany deserves a happy ending. But in this premodern world, she is understandably stuck on her family's former position and the idea of reclaiming it. A common enough dream for the setting, but it means cataclysm in her case.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think GRRM has said Nymeria is the closest historical character to Daenerys.

He did say that and Yea the're very similar.

This is a good post on their parallels by Littledragon8

Daenerys was named for the first Daenerys. We can assume her mother chose the name for her. In some cultures, a given name symbolizes a future wish a parent has for his or her child. We can only guess at what Rhaella had in mind for the future of her daughter. Perhaps she did not think much of it, being stuck on Dragonstone, soon to be besieged by a man who killed her son and condoned the killing of her daughter in law and grandchildren. Or perhaps she thought her daughter might be a tool in the hands of her relatives, forced in a marriage like she herself was. If the line of the latter thought holds true, it partially happened. Daenerys was traded by her brother for the promise of an army. But her further life is developing very differently from her namesake. Daenerys II Stormborn is nothing like Daenerys I. Actually, she has more in common with an ancestor, a certain queen Nymeria who Arianne strives to emulate.

Nymeria called the Rhoyne her home, but she was chased of her lands and roamed the seas with ten thousand ships and a loyal following. She was married to Garin, who is said to have unleashed a deadly illness into the world. When she finally landed in Westeros, Nymeria put her ships to the torch and settled her people, the Rhoynar, in the desert. She marries a local lord, and their combined strength secures them a kingdom. Her story resonates in Daenerys’ storyline.

Daenerys was chased from her home, Dragonstone. She roams the Dothraki sea and after this the Red Waste with a loyal retinue of Dothraki. She sees herself forced to marry Hizdahr. Soon after, Meereen is overrun with the bloody flux, another deadly decease. Daenerys’ personal motto is “if I look back I am lost”. She can’t reflect on her history. Cut back to Nymeria: burning bridges or boats behind oneself, means there is no going back. There is no room for reflection. The only way, is the way forward. And it seems that this is what Daenerys intends to do. Forward, in this context, means toward Westeros.

Garin did not follow Nymeria to Westeros. Seeing what Hizdahr is made of, he will likely be left behind, dead or alive, as well. When Daenerys does find herself in Westeros, she will be something of a foreigner, as she never consciously set foot in the country. Westeros will be new to her like it was in the past for Nymeria

[Sansa_Stark]

Quote of where GRRM compared Dany to Nymeria?

Link?

[Sevumar]

Garin did not follow Nymeria to Westeros. Seeing what Hizdahr is made of, he will likely be left behind, dead or alive, as well. When Daenerys does find herself in Westeros, she will be something of a foreigner, as she never consciously set foot in the country. Westeros will be new to her like it was in the past for Nymeria

There are some significant parallels, and without knowing details of Nymeria's life, it's hard to tell if their characters and values were that much alike. I do think it's important to note that Nyermia's actions came from responsibility she already possessed as a leader and that her most important decisions appear to have been peaceful. Nymeria knew that when she landed and found a new home for her people, it was important for her to integrate herself into the people and customs of her new home. She seems to have treated with the Martells on an equal footing and with the goal of securing their position and place instead of with an agenda of conquest.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

There are some significant parallels, and without knowing details of Nymeria's life, it's hard to tell if their characters and values were that much alike. I do think it's important to note that Nyermia's actions came from responsibility she already possessed as a leader and that her most important decisions appear to have been peaceful. Nymeria knew that when she landed and found a new home for her people, it was important for her to integrate herself into the people and customs of her new home. She seems to have treated with the Martells on an equal footing and with the goal of securing their position and place instead of with an agenda of conquest.

Yea their have some parallels but not exactly the same, more of a historical homage.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Quote of where GRRM compared Dany to Nymeria?

Link?

I forgot the link I'll try and find it,

[butterbumps!]

Martin likening Dany and Nymeria:

Also, just how much impact did the Rhoynar have on the modern customs of Dorne? Beyond the gender-blind inheritance laws, the couple of Rhoynish gods that smallfolk might have turned into saints or angelic-type beings, and perhaps the round shields, that is. In particular, given that Nymeria was a warrior-queen, is there a certain amazon tradition?

The Rhoynar did impact Dorne in a number of ways, some of which will be revealed in later books. Women definitely have more rights in Dorne, but I would not call it an "Amazon" tradition, necessarily. Nymeria had more in common with someone like Daenerys or Joan d'Arc than with Brienne or Xena the Warrior Princess.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Martin likening Dany and Nymeria:

Also, just how much impact did the Rhoynar have on the modern customs of Dorne? Beyond the gender-blind inheritance laws, the couple of Rhoynish gods that smallfolk might have turned into saints or angelic-type beings, and perhaps the round shields, that is. In particular, given that Nymeria was a warrior-queen, is there a certain amazon tradition?

The Rhoynar did impact Dorne in a number of ways, some of which will be revealed in later books. Women definitely have more rights in Dorne, but I would not call it an "Amazon" tradition, necessarily. Nymeria had more in common with someone like Daenerys or Joan d'Arc than with Brienne or Xena the Warrior Princess.

Thanks!! :thumbsup:

[Sansa_Stark]

Ah. That changes things though.

But in context, that doesn't mean Daenerys is some revolutionary or anything.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Dornish_women/

Take this into context.

"Nymeria was a war leader but not a warrior -- that is, a commander rather than a combatent."

I think he's comparing their leader/ruler positions as she is specifically not an actual warrior.

[butterbumps!]

Ah. That changes things though.

But in context, that doesn't mean Daenerys is some revolutionary or anything.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Dornish_women/

Take this into context.

"Nymeria was a war leader but not a warrior -- that is, a commander rather than a combatent."

I think he's comparing their leader/ruler positions as she is specifically not an actual warrior.

Well, not exactly-- I think Martin's thinking of them both as revolutionaries given the comparison of both to Joan of Arc.

He's clarifying that Nym wasn't an Amazonian type-woman, the way, for example, Brienne literally carries a sword and is a formidable fighter, but that she was the figurehead behind combat-- their commander and leader, but not a literal fighter.

He's pointing out they were both closer to someone like Joan of Arc than Brienne. As in, compelling leaders with a devoted following who commanded forces, though not literally fighters.

[Winter's Knight]

Nymeria may have married into the Martell family but she did still take over the rest of Dorne via conquest.

ETA

Omg wb KK!

[Storm's Arrival]

Well I'm no scientist, but all sorts of change happens when elements are exposed to fire.

But ice only solidifies the current element.

Everyone says Jon is Ice, but Stannis just feels so much better suited in my opinion.

...Now I'm going to get raped by someone who listened in chemistry now haha.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well I'm no scientist, but all sorts of change happens when elements are exposed to fire.

But ice only solidifies the current element.

Everyone says Jon is Ice, but Stannis just feels so much better suited in my opinion.

...Now I'm going to get raped by someone who listened in chemistry now haha.

Just dont try to throw sodium into water, even if it's ice cold :)

And wellcome to the forum!

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Well I'm no scientist, but all sorts of change happens when elements are exposed to fire.

But ice only solidifies the current element.

Everyone says Jon is Ice, but Stannis just feels so much better suited in my opinion.

...Now I'm going to get raped by someone who listened in chemistry now haha.

Welcome to the forums :cheers:

[Winter's Knight]

Well I'm no scientist, but all sorts of change happens when elements are exposed to fire.

But ice only solidifies the current element.

Everyone says Jon is Ice, but Stannis just feels so much better suited in my opinion.

...Now I'm going to get raped by someone who listened in chemistry now haha.

Can we not?

[GoldenFleece]

Also another possible hint that GRRM has planned for something anew and good grows out of the destruction of Slaver's Bay is the Pale Mare, which could be a possible historical connection to the Black Death.

The Black Death for all it terribleness changed our world forever and actually despite the countless deaths it inflicted had positive outcomes - mostly is signalled the beginning of the end for feudalism in Europe, the peasantry due to their lesser numbers had more power over their overlords than they ever had previously. Lesser peasants mean a higher market demand for peasantry work, so peasants could demand more for their work or they could leave and go to someone willing to offer their demands.

With the Pale Mare basically wiping our Astapor, the Yunkai sieging suffering it, I think some people in Meereen are dying from it (not too sure, cant remember), Yunkai could be plagued with it for all we know, Dany could have the pale mare as well. The population of Slaver's Bay is going to decreased substantially, perhaps even more than 50%. If Dany's forces win the siege of Meereen and crush the slaver forces, no more slaves will be brought in.

• That automatically gives the lower classes more power
  
• The decreased population food won't be such a problem as it once was.
  
• If Yunkai is infected, they could be totally exhausted and depending on the pop size, the conquered Yunkish could actually be moved to Meereen to keep everyone in 1 city.
  
• All of Meereen city state enemy armies have been destroyed by arms and disease, and won't be threatening the new free state any time soon
  
• Braavos, Volantis (soon) and (possibly) Pentos could possibly support the new free city of Meereen with trade.
  
• Astapor and Yunkai could be repopulated in time as free cities
  

So Dany might not even have to control 3 cities, just the one. One city can be manageable IF she knows who to put in charge of Meereen in her stead.

The Pale Mare for all the death it has inflicted and Dany's ideological intervention, could lay the seed for a new free Ghiscari nation. The Pale Mare is key to change. The night is always darkest before the dawn so to speak.

Also could Greyscale have the same affect on Westeros that the Pale Mare has in Slaver's Bay. Could Greyscale cause change in Westeros? Lots of smallfolk have died already.

[MoIaF]

There is another way in which Dany can cripple the slave industry.

I suspect she’ll be headed to Vaes Dothrak where I believe the crones will name her the stallion who mounts the world, the khal of khals. Once Dany has control of all the khalasar she’ll be able to end the capturing and selling of slaves from the Dothraki.

At the end of her last chapter, she says for the first time “to go forward, I must go back”, this might mean that in order to move forward with her abolitionist crusade, she’ll have to destroy it at its roots with the Dothraki - where she first encountered how slaves are captures.

Now, this won’t end the slave trade but it’ll be a huge blow as the Dothraki are the worst offenders in this respect. As for the Dothraki they can focus on horse breeding and trade, there is always money there.

ETA: clarification

[Maia]

I confess that I have only read the first few pages of this thread, but I am perplexed that Stannis and Jon are held up as examples of good rulers and administrators, when the jury is very much still out on both of them in these capacities.

I mean, Stannis has hardly made Dragonstone flourish in his 12 years of lordship there and his only claim to fame in these capacities is successfully banning brothels ;). Nor did he manage to garner any political support among the nobility or merchants during his tenure on the council.

As to Jon, he made a string of appallingly naive administrative and political decisions that should come to bite him in the posterior (even more). And it remains to be seen whether his reforms are going to endure any better than Dany's new regime in Astapor. Nor does Jon hate the mundane work of ruling any less than Dany.

Regarding Dany herself - for somebody who had zero training or example in the kind of ruling that she had to do in Meeren, nor any education in history beyond Viserys's tales and a few books of songs and romances, she did very decently. Not to mention that she was operating in a completely alien cutlure, to boot!

Speaking of abolition of slavery - have all the detractors forgotten Braavos? It has as few natural resources as the Slaver's Bay, yet it is the most powerful and rich of the Free Cities - _because_ it doesn't have slavery. When all is said and done, slavery is inefficient. Which is why it was eventually superceded by the much more efficient feudalism IRL.

And Braavos did undertake a not very successful attempt to eradicate slavery in the Free Cities. So, Dany isn't even the first there, nor is it such an alien concept for Essos.

I imagine that Dany will be the catalyst for the Faith of R'llor to embrace the anti-slavery agenda and that they will be the ones to make it stick in the course of the religious crusade, for which they seem to be gearing in Tyrion's PoV in Volantys.

Re: important societal changes, most of them are preceded by several unsuccessful attempts, revolts, etc. and these failures, as well as the ideas behind them very much inform the tactics and strategies that later lead to successes.

You can't have one without the other, nor is it fair to denigrate the failed precursors as stupid or evil and claim that they should have just _seen_ that changes were impossible and resigned themselves. You don't know what is possible until you try.

[SeanF]

There is another way in which Dany can cripple the slave industry.

I suspect she’ll be headed to Vaes Dothrak where I believe the crones will name her the stallion who mounts the world, the khal of khals. Once Dany has control of all the khalasar she’ll be able to end the capturing and selling of slaves from the Dothraki.

At the end of her last chapter, she says for the first time “to go forward, I must go back”, this might mean that in order to move forward with her abolitionist crusade, she’ll have to destroy it at its roots with the Dothraki - where she first encountered how slaves are captures.

Now, this won’t end the slave trade but it’ll be a huge blow as the Dothraki are the worst offenders in this respect. As for the Dothraki they can focus on horse breeding and trade, there is always money there.

ETA: clarification

I think it would be hugely difficult to get the Dothraki to fight on her behalf, and yet get them to forego the traditional rewards for people who risk their lives in battle for their leader.

Perhaps she could get them to take "wives", rather than gang-rape female captives; to let captives ransom themselves, rather than be enslaved; to turn captives who can't ransom themselves into servants and labourers, rather than chattel slaves. I think that anything more would be unreaslistic.