Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Anatúrinbor]

She still managed to get Maithanet killed.

[Sci-2]

I'd sooner expect pink unicorns to show up in the story. Esmenet's intellect is the Loch Ness Monster of the series, albeit, supported by even less evidence.

IIRC Bakker has noted Esmi's stumbling in the second series relates to her depression. I'm not sure how well this is conveyed in the text though.

[Gaston de Foix]

Yeah, well, she did that based on not being particularly smart and being easily manipulated by an 8 year old (Dunyain or not), and then didn't want him killed but had him killed anyway. If her greatest demonstration of intelligence is fucking up, that's not the best of signs.

getting Maitha killed when he had offered a gracious reconciliation (which she had accepted) and would have been able to support her against Fanayal was a spectacular own goal.

[Larry of the Lawn]

getting Maitha killed when he had offered a gracious reconciliation (which she had accepted) and would have been able to support her against Fanayal was a spectacular own goal.

She really didn't have anything to do with it.. the WLW would have positioned himself exactly where he needed to anyway regardless of what Esmi did or didn't do. So not really an own goal?

[Madness]

She still managed to get Maithanet killed.

Yeah, she did no such thing.

The only reason that Maithanet actually dies at the hands of Kelmomas' juvenile Dunyaining is because the White-Luck Warrior.

[Anatúrinbor]

Right, and the fact that she actually hired the assassin to kill Maitha had nothing to do with it.

[Madness]

No mere Narindari would have managed to kill Maithanet.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Right, and the fact that she actually hired the assassin to kill Maitha had nothing to do with it.

Well, maybe, if it turns out the WLW's ultimate goal is to kill Kellhus, and that killing Maitha was likely only necessary to create a future opportunity to kill AK. But even then, it's not like Esmi could have stopped him; she doesn't decide that Maitha isn't a threat until immediately before he's killed.

[Larry of the Lawn]

No mere Narindari would have managed to kill Maithanet.

True, he even manages to escape Inrilatus, in the dungeon, with the chains.

[Kalbear]

So Madness, are you then arguing that Esme isn't competent?

[Larry of the Lawn]

So Madness, are you then arguing that Esme isn't competent?

I'd argue that the way that she claims responsibility for Maitha's death, despite the craziness of what just happened, shows great presence of mind and solid improvisational leadership tendencies.

[Madness]

I've long maintained that Esmenet is blinded only by her Mother's love. I also think Esmenet is going to be a badass Empress in TUC and finally show up the haters - assuming she can reject Kelmomas as half-Dunyain.

Also, to me Esmenet was only an effective pawn in Kelmomas' plans because of her natural intelligences (the Ainoni Mask was genius touch).

[Anatúrinbor]

The WLW could not have killed Maithanet without the assassin.

[Gaston de Foix]

The WLW could not have killed Maithanet without the assassin.

would you care to elaborate? I'm not sure I follow...

[Madness]

Without the opportunity to take the Narindar's place, the Warrior could not have gotten to Maithanet.

Issue is that the Gods count on hindsight. They knew Kelmomas was always going to cause a rift between Maithanet and Esmenet. They knew Esmenet was always going to try and have Maithanet assassinated because of the discord Kelmomas causes. And the Warrior was always going to take the Narindar's place...

[Gaston de Foix]

Without the opportunity to take the Narindar's place, the Warrior could not have gotten to Maithanet.

Issue is that the Gods count on hindsight. They knew Kelmomas was always going to cause a rift between Maithanet and Esmenet. They knew Esmenet was always going to try and have Maithanet assassinated because of the discord Kelmomas causes. And the Warrior was always going to take the Narindar's place...

I don't follow the reasoning at all. Say the Narindar never existed- the WLW could still have come along and assassinated Maithanet. He might not have lived thereafter, but it's his nature that allowed him to assassinate Maitha, nothing more.

[Madness]

The first sentence was Ruiner's argument.

Second part is mine.

He might not have lived thereafter, but it's his nature that allowed him to assassinate Maitha, nothing more.

So we agree. But whatever happened, was always going to, because Gods/hindsight. So it doesn't matter how Maithanet died - it was always doomed to be the work of the Gods (except maybe in a universe without them.

[Sci-2]

No mere Narindari would have managed to kill Maithanet.

Not 100% sure about this.

It might be the original assassin's connection to Ajokli that allows the murder to be successful.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Or Kelmomas' connection to Ajokli...

[Gaston de Foix]

The first sentence was Ruiner's argument.

Second part is mine.

So we agree. But whatever happened, was always going to, because Gods/hindsight. So it doesn't matter how Maithanet died - it was always doomed to be the work of the Gods (except maybe in a universe without them.

so Madness you would agree that Esmenet's death is guaranteed at the hands of WLW?

I have three reactions to this.

1. Timing is critical, even if Esmenet's death is inevitable. Let me give an ASOIAF example- in ACOK the Faceless Man gives Arya three deaths because she saved three people from the flames. She regrets her choices and wishes she would have chosen Tywin Lannister and Joffrey Baratheon. However, as we find out later on, they both do die, but their deaths neither save House Stark nor destroy House Lannister. We can make a similar assessment with Stannis Baratheon and his leeches. Similarly even if the WLW assassinates Kelhus and Esmenet both, timing does matter hugely. As with the Faceless Man, we have simply no sense of timing about the WLW's assassinations.

2. Can the WLW warrior be deceived into attempting to assassinate a skin spy/illusion by mistake?

3. I actually still do believe Kellhus' prediction to Esmenet-

"A gust from over the dark sea. The violet sheers roiled and billowed, parted like gossamer lips.

"The White-Luck," he whispered in a voice that was the sky, the curve of all horizons, "shall break against you."

She gazed up at his face through sting and tears, and it seemed that in it she could see every face, the mien of all those who had bent upon her in Sumna, when she had kept a whore's bed.

"How? How can you know?"

"Because the anguish that makes mud of all your thoughts, because the fear that stains your days, because all your regret and anger and loneliness…" A haloed hand cupped her cheek. Blue eyes sounded her to the bottommost fathoms."All this makes you pure."

" (TJE Kindle 3681)