Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Anatúrinbor]

If Bakker finishes TUC in Feb 2014, it seems very pessimistic that the book wouldn't be out until fall of 2015. I agree with Wert that late 2014 might be optimistic, but it isn't out of the question.

If what's been mentioned about 12 months between manuscript and publication is correct, then it's very unlikely that TUC will get published this year. Plus, I think he was joking with the two weeks thing, he probably still needs a few months to finish it, which takes us to April-June 2014, add to that 10-12 months to publication and you're looking at mid 2015. This, assuming that he doesn't encounter any problems along the way.

But keep deceiving yourself if it makes you feel better :)

[Rhom]

Actually, I regret that post. Surely there is no squeeing allowed on the slog.

The slog of slogs!!!!!!!!

[lokisnow]

It's just we, the reader, are naturally inclined to view this through our own cultural lens and dismiss the statements

IIRC isn't this akin to the ideas of the ancient Greeks, where gods came upon people during particular moments of triumph and tragedy?

behold, a cultural lens and dismissal. :)

[Kalbear]

I still think it's a failing. He describes with very vivid detail and backstory how magic works - its appearance and vibe and characteristic. In that he sets an expectation - if there is something out of the ordinary, he'll detail it quite heavily.

But then he also brings in these incredibly brief depictions of the gods. They're just little descriptions in sentences. We don't know how Gilgaol looks when 'coming down onto' someone; we barely know if this is accurate. As a result it causes a bit of frission and surprise. Especially when in the second trilogy when a god intervenes it is made hugely explicit and obvious - at least with Yatwer.

I think that lockesnow's idea is sound and possibly correct, but I think the original trilogy executed it exceedingly poorly and inconsistently.

[Shryke]

I still think it's a failing. He describes with very vivid detail and backstory how magic works - its appearance and vibe and characteristic. In that he sets an expectation - if there is something out of the ordinary, he'll detail it quite heavily.

But then he also brings in these incredibly brief depictions of the gods. They're just little descriptions in sentences. We don't know how Gilgaol looks when 'coming down onto' someone; we barely know if this is accurate. As a result it causes a bit of frission and surprise. Especially when in the second trilogy when a god intervenes it is made hugely explicit and obvious - at least with Yatwer.

I think that lockesnow's idea is sound and possibly correct, but I think the original trilogy executed it exceedingly poorly and inconsistently.

I think it executed it very well. If it was explicit, the reversal wouldn't work.

Even before PON people were considering it a bit due to things like the Inrau death scene.

[Kalbear]

I think it executed it very well. If it was explicit, the reversal wouldn't work.

Even before PON people were considering it a bit due to things like the Inrau death scene.

What reversal? Lockesnow's saying that the world has explicit gods. That they do intercede and always have. There's nothing to reverse here. They've been doing it this whole time. In one series we get subtle hints that something odd is happening, maybe - or maybe it's just an homage to the iliad, as most people thought (and Bakker stated in an interview). But in the second series we find out no, that might have been happening all along.

There's no reversal, no reveal. Unless you're saying that in the first series he meant people to be mislead into believing that it was just an homage, but he wanted to establish god intercession - and then make it explicit. Which...okay, but it seems like a fairly cheap trick.

[Shryke]

What reversal? Lockesnow's saying that the world has explicit gods. That they do intercede and always have. There's nothing to reverse here. They've been doing it this whole time. In one series we get subtle hints that something odd is happening, maybe - or maybe it's just an homage to the iliad, as most people thought (and Bakker stated in an interview). But in the second series we find out no, that might have been happening all along.

There's no reversal, no reveal. Unless you're saying that in the first series he meant people to be mislead into believing that it was just an homage, but he wanted to establish god intercession - and then make it explicit. Which...okay, but it seems like a fairly cheap trick.

Um, the exact reversal you just talked about.

The God's presence in PON is explicit, most people just ignore it, even when there's evidence you shouldn't. The second trilogy then forces the reader to reverse their previously held interpretations.

The same way any revelation in any work of fiction ever works.

[Kalbear]

Okay. I guess I didn't take that as a revelation, merely poor writing. It didn't make me particularly reevaluate the original trilogy. It made me wonder why the gods weren't more explicit there. It felt like a hole. When Yatwer reveals herself to be absurdly powerful, it felt even more of a cheap trick. That there still is no reasonable explanation for why the gods ignore the Consult (the no-god, yes - the Consult, absolutely not) combined with how the gods' interaction with people in the first trilogy is either incredibly subtle or incredibly weird just makes it a mess.

To each their own I guess; if you thought it was awesome that the gods were there all along, good for you.

[Shryke]

Okay. I guess I didn't take that as a revelation, merely poor writing. It didn't make me particularly reevaluate the original trilogy. It made me wonder why the gods weren't more explicit there. It felt like a hole. When Yatwer reveals herself to be absurdly powerful, it felt even more of a cheap trick. That there still is no reasonable explanation for why the gods ignore the Consult (the no-god, yes - the Consult, absolutely not) combined with how the gods' interaction with people in the first trilogy is either incredibly subtle or incredibly weird just makes it a mess.

To each their own I guess; if you thought it was awesome that the gods were there all along, good for you.

Yeah, alright then....

[Sci-2]

behold, a cultural lens and dismissal. :)

Actually, my point was that in Earwa those ancient Greeks would be correct.

I think Bakker's layer's of revelation partially worked. I don't think the Celebrants necessarily appeared different visually, it's more the witnesses experience personal gnosis that a god is present. So it isn't necessary to explain these divine pseudo-possessions [in greater detail].

That said, I do think it's weird that no one in the Holy War talks about sending narinadar against the Fanim leaders. In fact does anyone even mention the White Luck in the first trilogy?

[Shryke]

Nope, it's never mentioned.

I don't see how the Holy War would be able to "send" the White-Luck Warrior at all. Heck, aren't they kind of amazed the priestly powers are actually working in TJE?

[Francis Buck]

Yeah, a distinction has to be made between the narindar and the White-Luck warrior. The WLW is something the gods choose to do, not really something you can summon or bring about. A narindar, as we see know them so far, seems to just be an assassin that worships Ajokli.

Then again, these things seem to have been intentionally muddled together in the fifth book, so who the fuck knows.

[Kalbear]

I don't think people are amazed; Esme knows about the WLW and that it has happened, and knows enough to fear it. Esme had to have it explained why the gods would oppose Kellhus - but not that the gods were active. And Kellhus and Maithanet were at least acting like they expected the gods opposition. The Yatwerians didn't appear to be amazed that Yatwer backed Psatma, rather they were shocked by how awesome she was. The presence of Yatwer was obvious. Sorweel wasn't hugely surprised either, and definitely his slave was not surprised in the least.

To me, it seems like gods talking to and interceding in affairs is historically common and fairly basic to the point where people talk about it with each other. Sometimes they do it more than others. But in the first series, it seems like others could tell that Gilgaol was doing stuff - observers could note it. So it's not just a personal gnosis; it's an observable effect.

[Gaston de Foix]

Okay. I guess I didn't take that as a revelation, merely poor writing. It didn't make me particularly reevaluate the original trilogy. It made me wonder why the gods weren't more explicit there. It felt like a hole. When Yatwer reveals herself to be absurdly powerful, it felt even more of a cheap trick. That there still is no reasonable explanation for why the gods ignore the Consult (the no-god, yes - the Consult, absolutely not) combined with how the gods' interaction with people in the first trilogy is either incredibly subtle or incredibly weird just makes it a mess.

To each their own I guess; if you thought it was awesome that the gods were there all along, good for you.

There are things that lead one to believe the status of the Gods may have changed in the second trilogy (i) Psatma says that the Gods are "throwing off the yoke of the Thousand Temples" (ii) they witness tyranny which leads them to intervene more directly (iii) they are responding to the suffering and upheaval caused by the Aspect Emperor.

but yes, it seems like the addition of explicit Godly powers, and new stuff that doesn't fit wholly comfortably (the WLW, the Judging Eye) seems at least in part like a retcon.

[Shryke]

I don't think people are amazed; Esme knows about the WLW and that it has happened, and knows enough to fear it. Esme had to have it explained why the gods would oppose Kellhus - but not that the gods were active. And Kellhus and Maithanet were at least acting like they expected the gods opposition. The Yatwerians didn't appear to be amazed that Yatwer backed Psatma, rather they were shocked by how awesome she was. The presence of Yatwer was obvious. Sorweel wasn't hugely surprised either, and definitely his slave was not surprised in the least.

To me, it seems like gods talking to and interceding in affairs is historically common and fairly basic to the point where people talk about it with each other. Sometimes they do it more than others. But in the first series, it seems like others could tell that Gilgaol was doing stuff - observers could note it. So it's not just a personal gnosis; it's an observable effect.

Our own ancestors believed that same shit with no real evidence. They fully think it's possible but still seem amazed at how overt it's become.

[Kalbear]

But we know it's overt. People see the haloed hands and think Kellhus is blessed. They talk about being taken over. The slave expects Yatwer's face to bless him. Psatma does as well. Esme isn't surprised. There's historical evidence of things like the White Luck. Kellhus has to explain not why the gods are interceding but why they're not doing it for him.

There's plenty of overt godliness in the first books if you're looking at it in that way. But it's not described overtly. It's mentioned in a way that is fairly subtle, like what I'd do about talking about traffic on the street. Again, its' odd because of the dichotomy between that and magic; magic is super explicitly talked about and described, detailed, adverbed and meticulously fetishized. God powers - the haloed hands, the heart, the Gilgaol shenanigans - are not.

Until the 4th book, where they're detailed as much as the magic.

Which is kind of odd.

[sologdin]

yeah, we had these discussions when IV came out--that the true theophanies and whatnot seemed kinda outta no where, though, upon reflection, some folks dredged up subtle antecedents, like ante-nicene fathers finding prophetics in the hebrew scripture confirmed in jesus.

anyway, am enjoying how the release date speculation is gollumizing all'y'all. didn't trisk (sorry to single ye out, chap!) state a present intention at one point that he'd kill for volume VI? how many among you are reduced to cannibalism and fratricide at this point? would RSB approve? did he plan this? is he trying to lash us all to the precious? it's like tolkien's wings or balrogs' racism!

[Francis Buck]

For what it's worth, there are parts in the WLW's POV chapters where people are indeed amazed when they see him. They're described as being like "the special people that can see him for what he is", presumably followers of the Yatwerian cult.

That's why I mentioned the distinction between narindar and the White-Luck. Esmi isn't amazed because she just thinks he's a narindar.

[Kalbear]

That's why I mentioned the distinction between narindar and the White-Luck. Esmi isn't amazed because she just thinks he's a narindar.

Right - but she is scared that the White Luck will go against them. She clearly knows what that is - and understands that it could happen. Others are amazed by the White luck, but they're not like 'this has never happened before'. They are amazed because they know what it means and what the magnitude of it really is.

[Anatúrinbor]

Achamian notes to Mimara that the WLW is a folk tale IIRC.