Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[lokisnow]

Inrilitus' death is crucial to force Esmenet into open conflict rebellion against Maithanet which will successfully weaken the Empire at the crucial moment. Kellhus conditioning Inritius to seem crazy and then die at the appropriate time seems the best answer for Inrilitus going bonkers. Since he would want Inrilitus to deceive himself, Kellhus led him into the false revelation path of hedonism. Which for the author should also be an amusing buried parallel to the inchoroi. It's amusing to have the Shriah kill Inri in a conflict of faith vs hedonism which is also metaphorically Maithanet facing off against the Inchoroi. It's further ironic that Maithanet metaphorically taking out the inchoroi causes Esmenet to take the side of the Inchoroi and attack Maithanet.

[Gaston de Foix]

Inrilitus' death is crucial to force Esmenet into open conflict rebellion against Maithanet which will successfully weaken the Empire at the crucial moment. Kellhus conditioning Inritius to seem crazy and then die at the appropriate time seems the best answer for Inrilitus going bonkers. Since he would want Inrilitus to deceive himself, Kellhus led him into the false revelation path of hedonism. Which for the author should also be an amusing buried parallel to the inchoroi. It's amusing to have the Shriah kill Inri in a conflict of faith vs hedonism which is also metaphorically Maithanet facing off against the Inchoroi. It's further ironic that Maithanet metaphorically taking out the inchoroi causes Esmenet to take the side of the Inchoroi and attack Maithanet.

This is one interpretation that was in the back of my mind. However it ignores the instigation of Kelmomas, who is really the original cause of the conflict between Maitha and Esmenet, and whose actions Kellhus' could not predict at least so far; if he could, he would never have travelled all the way to Mommen to cow the Mother-Supreme.

By the way, is there any theory about who little Kel is talking to in the scene where he kill the Shrial Knight? I know Ajokli is clearly a obvious contestant but it seems someone who has knowledge of the progress of the Ordeal...

[Kalbear]

and whose actions Kellhus' could not predict at least so far; if he could, he would never have travelled all the way to Mommen to cow the Mother-Supreme.

Why not? That led to her death, which led to the empire revolting even further.

[lokisnow]

This is one interpretation that was in the back of my mind. However it ignores the instigation of Kelmomas, who is really the original cause of the conflict between Maitha and Esmenet, and whose actions Kellhus' could not predict at least so far; if he could, he would never have travelled all the way to Mommen to cow the Mother-Supreme.

Hmm well two things here. The first POV we have from Kelmomas is a very short time after he was formally and officially whelmed (ie conditioned) personally by Kellhus, so he certainly could have set up Kelmomas as well.

As for Momemn, Kellhus knew Kelmomas was outside their door listening to them (and it's in listening to this conversation that Kelmomas suddenly is inspired to leave and go slaughter mother superior), how do we know that Kellhus knows Kelmomas is out there? Well remember this bit from Thousand Fold Thought?

Then Kellhus heard them as well, creeping through black toward their light and their voices. There were three of them. The Scylvendi he recognized by his heartbeat … But who accompanied him?

If Kellhus' hearing is so acute that he can discern a heartbeat even a hundred feet away, he should have no trouble hearing a child walking quietly in the hallway just outside his bedroom, the child's heartbeat, the child's breathing, and the child's footfalls would all alert him.

And considering that quite a bit of discussion follows the above line, a hundred feet seems an absurdly small distance, a quarter mile would be more likely.

[Gaston de Foix]

Hmm well two things here. The first POV we have from Kelmomas is a very short time after he was formally and officially whelmed (ie conditioned) personally by Kellhus, so he certainly could have set up Kelmomas as well.

As for Momemn, Kellhus knew Kelmomas was outside their door listening to them (and it's in listening to this conversation that Kelmomas suddenly is inspired to leave and go slaughter mother superior), how do we know that Kellhus knows Kelmomas is out there? Well remember this bit from Thousand Fold Thought?

If Kellhus' hearing is so acute that he can discern a heartbeat even a hundred feet away, he should have no trouble hearing a child walking quietly in the hallway just outside his bedroom, the child's heartbeat, the child's breathing, and the child's footfalls would all alert him.

And considering that quite a bit of discussion follows the above line, a hundred feet seems an absurdly small distance, a quarter mile would be more likely.

That's brill and convincing. I had read the scene and thought that Kelmomas was able to control his heartbeat sufficiently to avoid detection but clearly that's not the case. Even Maitha knows where Kelmomas is.

So to follow up from your theory; Kelmomas is the resource in Mommen that Kellhus was referring to?

"Father told me. In his own words, he said, 'This is how it will happen, Kel.'""Well, mostly in his words. Some of my words too."

He paused as if listening to an inaudible answer.

"Secret words-he even said so. Words that no one- no one -can hear.""

I've just been pondering over the quote above...it's framed in the future tense - "this is how it will happen, Kel." - Does that mean the conversation happened during Kel's whelming?

[Callan S.]

That's my best analysis, which doesn't come close to answering the why Kellhus' couldn't see a path to rescue him.

Because it's not a rescue, it'd be a manipulation and Inrilatus knows that.

[Armitage]

Hmm well two things here. The first POV we have from Kelmomas is a very short time after he was formally and officially whelmed (ie conditioned) personally by Kellhus, so he certainly could have set up Kelmomas as well.

The Whelming referred to here is not the same as the Dûnyain conditioning. It's a ritual Kellhus creates during the Holy War, described in Chapter 3 of TTT:

Suddenly everything Cnaiür witnessed was parsed in two, as though his eyes had become enemies, one against the other. Gotian had completed the Temple Prayer, and several of the Dûnyain’s high priests, his Nascenti, had begun a Whelming for those among the Lesser Names who’d been too ill to partake in the ceremony previously. A flaming basin of oil had been set before the Warrior-Prophet, who sat idol still. The first of the initiates, a Thunyeri by the look of his braids, knelt beside the tripod, then exchanged inaudible orisons with the administering priest. Though his face had been battered by pestilence and war, his eyes were those of a ten-year-old, pinned wide in hope and apprehension. In a single motion the priest dipped his hand into the burning oil then drew it across the Thunyeri’s features. For a heartbeat the man gazed from a face aflame, until a second priest doused him with a wet towel. The room thundered with exultant cries, and the thane, his expression bent by profound passion, staggered into the jubilant arms of his comrades.

The TTT glossary differentiates the two meanings:

Whelming—A hypnotic trance instrumental to Dûnyain Conditioning, and a purificatory rite of induction for the Zaudunyani.

Also, Kellhus isn't present for Kelmomas's Whelming. He's with the Great Ordeal. It's not clear but it seems likely that Maithanet performed the ceremony.

[Gaston de Foix]

The Whelming referred to here is not the same as the Dûnyain conditioning. It's a ritual Kellhus creates during the Holy War, described in Chapter 3 of TTT:

The TTT glossary differentiates the two meanings:

Also, Kellhus isn't present for Kelmomas's Whelming. He's with the Great Ordeal. It's not clear but it seems likely that Maithanet performed the ceremony.

so, who exactly was Kelmomas talking to, and how did he have his (ostensible) conversation with Kellhus.

[unJon]

Theory to explain the idotic decision of the nogod joining battle rather than hiding up North until everyone died: while the nogod walked humans were immortal slash didn't die of natural causes. Fits with the theme of the womb plague. Also kinda fits with the nogod stopping he cycle of souls between outside and Earwa.

[Sci-2]

Theory to explain the idotic decision of the nogod joining battle rather than hiding up North until everyone died: while the nogod walked humans were immortal slash didn't die of natural causes. Fits with the theme of the womb plague. Also kinda fits with the nogod stopping he cycle of souls between outside and Earwa.

I feel like Akka would've mentioned this? Even if people directly attacked by the Consult were too busy to worry about old people sticking around the Zeumi should've noted this.

I think the No-God requiring maintenance or fuel makes the most sense. Additionally I suspect It isn't easy to control or serve. Aurang seems rather worried that the No-God is angry with him in TTT.

[Armitage]

so, who exactly was Kelmomas talking to, and how did he have his (ostensible) conversation with Kellhus.

In WLW, you mean? The "secret words" / "this is how it will happen" conversation Kelmomas describes as he is torturing the Shrial Knight in the labyrinth? Kellhus could have talked to Kelmomas at any time before he left with the Ordeal, and Kelmomas is now remembering the conversation. Or it's possible that Kelmomas is indeed one of Kellhus's "resources in Momemn" and they're somehow in contact. But in neither case does it have anything to do with Kelmomas's public Whelming ceremony.

[unJon]

I feel like Akka would've mentioned this? Even if people directly attacked by the Consult were too busy to worry about old people sticking around the Zeumi should've noted this.

I think the No-God requiring maintenance or fuel makes the most sense. Additionally I suspect It isn't easy to control or serve. Aurang seems rather worried that the No-God is angry with him in TTT.

I agree either of these is more likely though there is some thematic niceness I my half cracked theory. If the nogod walked for only 7 years. And these years were all of war as all nations marched North. And society fell apart everywhere and starvation was rampant, it's at least plausible that people not dying of heart attacks, cancer and old age went unnoticed. Starvation, accidents and violent deaths would have taken care of swaths of the population and people had bigger worries than noticing that some rich old folks weren't falling over dead. Maybe?

[Gaston de Foix]

I think the No-God requiring maintenance or fuel makes the most sense. Additionally I suspect It isn't easy to control or serve. Aurang seems rather worried that the No-God is angry with him in TTT.

I imagine the No-God as huge,disembodied, blind, surrounded by a whirlwind, and able to sense people but not to see in a profound identity crisis. He keeps walking towards large population centers because he wants to know himself but cannot see himself.

Unjon, I think are only two alternatives- either nobody dies and no souls leave the body or all the souls of people who die feed the No-God or migrate to him/

[unJon]

I imagine the No-God as huge,disembodied, blind, surrounded by a whirlwind, and able to sense people but not to see in a profound identity crisis. He keeps walking towards large population centers because he wants to know himself but cannot see himself.

Unjon, I think are only two alternatives- either nobody dies and no souls leave the body or all the souls of people who die feed the No-God or migrate to him/

I don't think the No God really cuts off the Outside, or else there's no reason to get the population down to 144,000.

I agree my theory is half cracked. It would be a nice revelation, however, and I don't think there's any evidence against it (none for it either, except it fits the real world theme Bakker has put in the books about the Trade Off Between Fecundity and Longevity).

[Gaston de Foix]

Just noticed in the TTT appendix that references to the Heron Spear are found in the Isurphysis (major spell check....I'm referring to the Nonman history book). This is the tome that was destroyed at Sauglish but for one copy that Seswatha saved and brought South during the Apocalypse. It seems to me like anything that comes from that book is questionable.

ETA: I don't know that this necessarily means that there are no other references to the Heron Spear.

that the Heron Spear is a fake? Or that the Heron Spear that was stolen by the Scylvendi was a fake.

There is also a relief in Cil-Aujis of the battle of Pir Pahal and Akka recognises the heron spear in the relief...

Realistically speaking, it may not happen in The Unholy Consult, but after all this build up, does anyone think we won't see the No God on screen at some point in the series? It would be the ultimate dodge-out. If we see the No God walk, then obviously the location and continued existence of the Heron Spear is a major plot point.

Also, just to confirm the Inchoroi weapons of light stopped working eventually...so what makes the Heron Spear different?

[Francis Buck]

Also, just to confirm the Inchoroi weapons of light stopped working eventually...so what makes the Heron Spear different?

They stopped working?

[Gaston de Foix]

They stopped working?

"But slowly, as the Inchoroi exhausted their fell weapons and relied more and more on their vile slaves, the Cûnuroi and their Halaroi servants gained the advantage. Then at long last the surviving Ishroi of Eärwa trapped the last of their diminished foe within the Incû-Holoinas" - from TTT glossary under Cunoi-Inchoroi wars. It's pretty clear these are the weapons of light that are referenced earlier...

[Francis Buck]

Ah, interesting. I always thought that just meant they exhausted their usefulness against sorcery, but the idea that they ran out of power makes more sense. In which case, I would say the only reason the Heron Spear still worked is because they simply stopped using it. It was probably "revered" to some extent by the Inchoroi, being their dead king's signature weapon, and if it was only the such weapon left, then there wouldn't be much reason for them to use it up unless it could somehow turn the tide of a particular battle, which seems unlikely. So they probably just held onto it as a relic.

[unJon]

Just noticed in the TTT appendix that references to the Heron Spear are found in the Isurphysis (major spell check....I'm referring to the Nonman history book). This is the tome that was destroyed at Sauglish but for one copy that Seswatha saved and brought South during the Apocalypse. It seems to me like anything that comes from that book is questionable.

ETA: I don't know that this necessarily means that there are no other references to the Heron Spear.

I like this idea that Seswatha is under deep cover playing a loooong game. Would each Ses homonucleous know that? If so then Kel might know from his hypnosis of Akka.

[Gaston de Foix]

I like this idea that Seswatha is under deep cover playing a loooong game. Would each Ses homonucleous know that? If so then Kel might know from his hypnosis of Akka.

well clearly he had a strategy beyond founding the Mandati. But how could he continue to exist if his shrivelled heart is at Atyersus? Also, how does Seswatha transfer his memories to his heart?

Incidentally, why did Serwa (and I assume all the Swayali) grasp the heart or serve an apprenticeship under the Mandati? What does it mean that Kellhus wants his daughter to have Seswatha's dreams?