Bakker XXII: All Aboard the Damnation Express

[Rhom]

First time posting on a Bakker thread (might as well make a mini-forum for this guy, cause damn :))

Just finished The White-Luck Warrior, and I am glad that I decided to stick with the series, because this one was a really good book, compared with the bore-fest that was The Judging Eye. That one was 90% philosophizing (professional bs), and 10% plot.

There are a few questions points that if anyone cares to answer to I would appreciate it:

• The map of Earwa shows Cil-Aujas much closer to human lands than what I expected as I read the Judging Eye. And also further east than I would have thought. Why the hell didn't the Skin Eaters just march south of the mountains through Galeoth lands?
• Also since Cil-Aujas was infested with Sranc, how much territory do they occupy? And judging by the Horde's size, how come the Consult has been sitting on its ass all these years, and not unleashing all that mass of Sranc upon the human nations? Sakarpus, at the very least, should have fallen long ago.
• Maithanet - I expected more from this guy. After all, there is a user here who bears that name. Yes, he orchestrated the First Holy War, but we didn't see much of him in that trilogy. In this one, he does the one badass thing when he kills the crazy son, and then later dies.

Don't know that I can answer all of these, but as to the Sranc it is pretty well established that they are largely uncontrollable and only obtain a kind of unified focus when they are driven into it like the ones pressed forward by the Great Ordeal.

And I believe the weather prevented them taking any other route than Cil-Aujas and they needed to travel in the wake of the Ordeal in order to minimize being overrun by large clans of Sranc.

[Madness]

(might as well make a mini-forum for this guy, cause damn :))

http://www.second-apocalypse.com

[Anatúrinbor]

I'm still waiting for a Maithanet comeback.

[Sci-2]

I'm still waiting for a Maithanet comeback.

Unless we meet his soul in the Outside I don't see that happening.

Though I really don't want any resurrections. This series is a tragedy, not a soap opera.

If Cnauir or Big Moe comes back I'll be rather disappointed.

[Anatúrinbor]

Though I really don't want any resurrections. This series is a tragedy, not a soap opera.

Was that a jab at ASoIaF? :) Bakker could've actually used some of that because it is the 'soap opera' aspect of ASoIaF that made it so successful IMO.

Anyway, I don't like resurrections either, but there are some convoluted ways that Maithanet could turn up alive, having anticipated Esmi's move and used a body double... And we know from Neuropath and DotD that Bakker is not above doing similar cheesy plot twists.

[Sci-2]

Was that a jab at ASoIaF? :) Bakker could've actually used some of that because it is the 'soap opera' aspect of ASoIaF that made it so successful IMO.

Nah, I was thinking literal soap operas. [General Hospital, All My Children, etc]

I think the tone of Bakker's work precludes death as a revolving door. The deaths are Big Deal, and they close out thematic as well as narrative arcs. How sad would it be to see Big Moe come back to life and talk to Kellhus? Better to speculate -as Lockesnow has excellently done - as to what Big Moe's plans were.

And we know from Neuropath and DotD that Bakker is not above doing similar cheesy plot twists.

I think as thriller Neuropath is a different beast. If Maithanet isn't dead, we have to explain how the real Maitha had access to incredibly plastic surgery or how he found this incredibly [good] look alike. IMO this kind of thing degrades the novels, sapping the momentum of TUC.

[Corvinus85]

Don't know that I can answer all of these, but as to the Sranc it is pretty well established that they are largely uncontrollable and only obtain a kind of unified focus when they are driven into it like the ones pressed forward by the Great Ordeal.

And I believe the weather prevented them taking any other route than Cil-Aujas and they needed to travel in the wake of the Ordeal in order to minimize being overrun by large clans of Sranc.

Well it seems to me that they decided to go on the northern side of the Osthwai Mountains (The Long Side) rather than just travel west.

And considering the Ten-Yoke Legion, you would think that the Consult would have figured out a way to manipulate large groups of Sranc, by using hunger, to drive them south into human lands.

[Sci-2]

And considering the Ten-Yoke Legion, you would think that the Consult would have figured out a way to manipulate large groups of Sranc, by using hunger, to drive them south into human lands.

To what end? Heck, even the use of Skin Spies seems questionable if their only goal was to build the No-God.

So the best explanation, IMO, is that the Consult needs a mass number of human souls to power the No-God.

[Gaston de Foix]

To what end? Heck, even the use of Skin Spies seems questionable if their only goal was to build the No-God.

So the best explanation, IMO, is that the Consult needs a mass number of human souls to power the No-God.

I wondered about that. Why keep sending skin spies into the New Empire after their nature was uncovered? It seems low percentage, particularly when (as Aurang observed) there are not too many of them. The Consult clearly wanted Kellhus to have the illusion of control, and to seem predictable even at the risk of losing these assets.

[Sci-2]

Sci - I agree about Nayu, but part of why I think Moe coming back has potential is because I would only expect it in the context of him having been playing a deeper game all along.

Mysteries are effective when the rules are known - why most mysteries work best in our world rather than those of speculative fiction.

If Big Moe is alive, how does that work - he teleported as the chorae touched his cheek? He's amassed power in the Outside?

All of this requires detours of explanation in what should be the climatic book. From a meta perspective it's very cheap.

Maybe Big Moe was a playing a bigger game, but I suspect that game is one which included his own demise for the sake of the Mission. Question being what Big Moe's Mission actually was and how far it deviated from the original Dunyain goals.

[Francis Buck]

Sci - I agree about Nayu, but part of why I think Moe coming back has potential is because I would only expect it in the context of him having been playing a deeper game all along.

Pretty much this. Even though a big part of me would like to see Cnaiur return, I don't really see it happening, and nor can I really think of any circumstances where it would make sense or be purposeful. His arc was very much completed, which is not necessarily the case with Moe. I think he's alive, and I think he's Meppa. The parallels to Dune in this aspect are huge.

Dune spoilers (books one through three)

Moe/Muad'Dib conceives of Ultimate Plan (Golden Path/Shortest Path/Thousandfold Thought etc.)

Moe/Muad'Dib eventually fails to achieve in this plan in some way, possibly due to a hesitation to Do What's Necessary. He's blind at this point, and seems to die.

The son (Kellhus/Leto) takes the father's mantle and isn't afraid to go all the way. Ends up becoming a God Emperor.

Suddenly a mysterious figure (Muad'Dib as the Preacher, Moe as Meppa the Last Cishaurim) from the desert returns, barely recognizable due to the weathering of the years. Both are seemingly "not all there", and they are apparently at odds with their son's Ultimate Plan -- the very one they themselves initially conceived.

I'd almost bet money that Moe is Meppa.

And I don't really have a problem with it at all. If there were characters coming back to life left and right, then it would be a different story. But the series hasn't really done that at all, and at this point no one makes more sense than Moe as far as I'm concerned. Plus, the universe we're dealing with is hardly one where "death is final" in the typical sense. We have seen countless methods of avoiding/delaying it already (and that's assuming that Moe had to avoid death at all, rather than simply trick Cnaiur -- who was at the absolute height of his insanity by this point, and is whom we had the last POV from regarding Moe).

[Shryke]

I wondered about that. Why keep sending skin spies into the New Empire after their nature was uncovered? It seems low percentage, particularly when (as Aurang observed) there are not too many of them. The Consult clearly wanted Kellhus to have the illusion of control, and to seem predictable even at the risk of losing these assets.

For the same reason you always send spies: to keep an eye on things

Plus, they are just skin-spies. They are fairly disposable. You can always hope to gain some advantage from it.

[Anatúrinbor]

I'm pretty sure there is going to be a Dunyain reunion in the next book. Kellhus, Maitha, Moe, and that guy Sacarcus or whatever.

[Corvinus85]

To what end? Heck, even the use of Skin Spies seems questionable if their only goal was to build the No-God.

So the best explanation, IMO, is that the Consult needs a mass number of human souls to power the No-God.

To the end of humanity. The Inchoroi believe that by reducing the world's number of souls to less than 144k they escape damnation. This is why they created the Sranc. Kill people without destroying the land (as opposed to what dragons would do) which they see as their promise land.

But if you are right about the Consult needing a great number of souls to re-awaken the No-God, that means that they want the Ordeal to reach Golgotterath. Is that how it was done during the first Apocalypse?

[Larry of the Lawn]

I'm still waiting for a Maithanet comeback.

Unless we meet his soul in the Outside I don't see that happening.

Though I really don't want any resurrections. This series is a tragedy, not a soap opera.

If Cnauir or Big Moe comes back I'll be rather disappointed.

I read The Great Ruiner's post as he was waiting for the Westeros boarder Maithanet to respond to the declarations by Corvinus that Maithanet the character failed to live up to expectations:

• Maithanet - I expected more from this guy. After all, there is a user here who bears that name. Yes, he orchestrated the First Holy War, but we didn't see much of him in that trilogy. In this one, he does the one badass thing when he kills the crazy son, and then later dies.

Mysteries are effective when the rules are known - why most mysteries work best in our world rather than those of speculative fiction.

If Big Moe is alive, how does that work - he teleported as the chorae touched his cheek? He's amassed power in the Outside?

All of this requires detours of explanation in what should be the climatic book. From a meta perspective it's very cheap.

Maybe Big Moe was a playing a bigger game, but I suspect that game is one which included his own demise for the sake of the Mission. Question being what Big Moe's Mission actually was and how far it deviated from the original Dunyain goals.

Here comes some crackpottery I firmly believe:

Dunno about amassing power in the Outside, but after his whole conversation with Kellhus, in which I believe Big Moe is a step ahead of Kelly, I think he does teleport. The way he responded to the Chorae was different, if I remember correctly, than other instances of sorcerors being trinketed. I think he was just kind of trolling the fuck out of Kellhus with his whole "I bet on the wrong horse going with the psukhe, since it relies mostly on faith". I mean, how would he, being a fucking Dunyain, not realize this to begin with? Whether or not he's Meppa, I think Big Moe is still alive and is the one fucking around with Achamian's dreams.

[Sci-2]

To the end of humanity. The Inchoroi believe that by reducing the world's number of souls to less than 144k they escape damnation. This is why they created the Sranc. Kill people without destroying the land (as opposed to what dragons would do) which they see as their promise land.

I mean trying to herd the Sranc, an incredibly difficult task, toward humanity actually works against them. It would ally mankind against the Consult and lead to a new Ordeal before the Consult was ready.

What we don't know at this time is the extent to which Kellhus interrupted whatever the Consult's plans are by discovering the skin-spies.

But as Kalbear has noted, why have skin-spies at all if you can sit up north and assemble the No-God? I'm guessing the Consult wanted to start up a new Ordeal at some point in order to bring humans - possibly Few to be exact - to Golgotterath.

I mean, how would he, being a fucking Dunyain, not realize this to begin with? Whether or not he's Meppa, I think Big Moe is still alive and is the one fucking around with Achamian's dreams.

It does seem odd that Big Moe would take such a leap of faith. But then it's questionable at that point if he could have done anything else. He would be stuck as a priest, serving the Cish or the nobility/royalty of the Fanim without any way to mass greater power.

Big Moe's reaction to chorae is different than sorcerers but akin to the death of Cish. It's possible that Cish touched by chorae end up denizens of the Shadow World Akka and Xin journey through, which could allow Big Moe to exist as a shade rather have him stuck in Hell.

Though if the reaction to Cish is markedly different, how come no PoV ever notes the distinction when the subject of Chorae is brought up[?] Seems like something Akka, at least, would think about when discussing the Snake Heads.

[unJon]

If the No God needs lots of bodies like the Great Ordeal will provide to be recreated, then those who propose Great Ordeals may want the No God created. I'm thinkin mainly of Seswatha, which would be a totally insane plot twist.

[jurble]

I'm pretty sure there is going to be a Dunyain reunion in the next book. Kellhus, Maitha, Moe, and that guy Sacarcus or whatever.

Sacarees is not a Dunyain. The best candidate for 'hidden Dunyain' is a character mentioned in a throwaway line at one point - a Thunyari Judge who sailed to Momemn in a boat or something. Thunyari is a nice cover for a Dunyain (Norsirai).

[Francis Buck]

If the No God needs lots of bodies like the Great Ordeal will provide to be recreated, then those who propose Great Ordeals may want the No God created. I'm thinkin mainly of Seswatha, which would be a totally insane plot twist.

While I do believe there's going to be an uber-crazy megaton twist regarding Seswatha, I feel like this might be a stretch. Why not just join the Consult?

I do believe he wants to stop damnation, I just think he has (in his eyes) a "better" way of doing it, but he knew he needed time and thus did the whole homunculus thing.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

To answer a few of those questions:

- They go through Cil-Aujas because: 1. It is near the town where the Scalpoi come to sell their bales, 2. The weather forced them to go underground by snowing in the pass they intended to use, and 3. Akka is a wanted criminal who knows he can't risk being seen and recognized by Imperial officials, which would be impossible if he tried to cut across Galeoth and follow the Ordeal's path directly.

- The Sranc control almost all land north of the Three Seas, but they fight each other and are completely non-unified. This allows various humans to settle in Sranc territory (Sakarpus, Atrithau, the tribes from the end of TWP, northern Scylvendi, Thunyeri). Sorweel mentions larger wars that occur periodically when a strong Sranc chieftain unites several of their tribes, but even that much unity seems rare among the Sranc.

The Consult don't mass them and send them south because A) they can't, they have very little actual ability to corral the Sranc in large numbers; the Horde is not something they control, simply a byproduct of the Ordeal's advance, B) it would be too risky, and C) there's no real point to it, since they don't seem to have a solid plan of any kind.

Another interesting note about the Sranc... Prior to Kellhus offering the bounty, Sranc controlled even eastern Galeoth, west of the mountains. So even the Three Seas proper were not free of them.