Talk about Stannis Baratheon(and then perform your duties in a leal and puissant manner)

[Queen of Whores]

Has anyone ever noticed that the people who dislike Stannis are generally the most obnoxious commenters in general?

Uh oh, be careful now or we might bring down their wrath, and what a fearsome thing that is.

[Ramsay Gimp]

You forgot the amphibious assault on DS and Subduing of Great Wyk, largest of Iron Islands.

Yea I did forget about those. But how significant were these campaigns really? They look good on a resume, but I imagine the Baratheon forces just kind of steamrolled through - the Greyjoys would have been vastly outnumbered and suck on land anyway.

Really, it was all over once the Iron Fleet was defeated. So kudos Stannis

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Yea I did forget about those. But how significant were these campaigns really? They look good on a resume, but I imagine the Baratheon forces just kind of steamrolled through - the Greyjoys would have been vastly outnumbered and suck on land anyway.

Really, it was all over once the Iron Fleet was defeated. So kudos Stannis

Fair Enough.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Has anyone ever noticed that the people who dislike Stannis are generally the most obnoxious commenters in general?

Some of his fans are obnoxious as well. No group has a monopoly on being annoying

Personally, the posters who defend everything Robb did and say his defeat was only because of bad luck and treachery are the ones that grind my gears.

[GallowsKnight]

Yea I did forget about those. But how significant were these campaigns really? They look good on a resume, but I imagine the Baratheon forces just kind of steamrolled through - the Greyjoys would have been vastly outnumbered and suck on land anyway.

Really, it was all over once the Iron Fleet was defeated. So kudos Stannis

The Iron Born do have castles.

They'd also have the advantage of known terrain.

Stannis would not have had significantly greater numbers as any troops would have to be transported by sea and supplied.

The Iron Born's key disadvantage on land is a lack of cavalry and even then we see from Theon versus the Wild Hares that they can put up a mean fight with archers and men at arms on foot. Every Knight and mounted lance Stannis had would also need to have their mounts transported, so they might not be a significant proportion either.

[Thucydides]

Some of his fans are obnoxious as well. No group has a monopoly on being annoying

Personally, the posters who defend everything Robb did and say his defeat was only because of bad luck and treachery are the ones that grind my gears.

I can be pretty obnoxious myself. Depends on the day.

[Queen of Whores]

I can be pretty obnoxious myself. Depends on the day.

Yeah I'm also pretty stubborn sometimes, in that I don't want to admit I'm wrong or I've lost. It really depends on the person though. If it's a certain one of my friends I have no problem telling her she's right and I'm wrong (this rarely is the case though), but if it's one of my other friends, we can argue for hours about a topic and I'll never back down or admit he's right. I like to think I'm stubborn like Stannis.

[TalalOfDorne]

I dont have much to say except that I like Stannis, Selyse, and Shireen.

Would it be a bad idea if this thread was pinned?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Would it be a bad idea if this thread was pinned?

Nope.

[Thucydides]

If that was a shot at me, I'd like to let you know that I like Stannis. I can just admit the character has very transparent flaws.

There's an irony involved in calling people obnoxious online -- specifically, it's an obnoxious thing to do. I typed in it an "Oh, geeze" kind of way, but it didn't read that way, and I never should have typed it to begin with. I apologize.

[illrede]

Has anyone ever noticed that the people who dislike Stannis are generally the most obnoxious commenters in general?

Has anyone ever noticed that the people who like Stannis are generally having the most fun commenting in general?

[GallowsKnight]

The list is quite impressive. I won't get into who is the "best" (because that always degenerates into fanboyism, quibbling over definitions, arguing over what "counts" etc), but rather if Stannis should be considered a "great" general/battle commander or just a good/reliable one.

1. First, Storm's End: This isn't a display of tactical or strategic skill so much as a display of resolve and discipline. Clearly there were mutinous whisperings inside the castle, which Stannis effectively quelled. This is no small feat for an untested lordling still in his teens. But I don't think it suggests that he's a great "battle commander"

Fair Isle: A smashing victory, and the one that really sealed his reputation. The Ironborn are supposed to be unrivaled in naval combat, yet Stannis beat them on their own turf and allowed for Robert to consolidate his authority as King.

2. Blackwater: Major marks against Stannis here. Appointing a Florent as naval commander and attacking a fortified position when a major enemy force is still in the field (Tywin and Mace's hosts) were both foolish. I think his loss here came from focusing too much on the Throne itself, rather than the broader war.

3. The Wall: Used the advantage of surprise and the better quality of his troops/equipment to great effect. But as others have pointed out, most lords who were willing to do this probably could have pulled it off, simply because it was the last thing Mance expected and men-at-arms will always beat Wildlings in a battle.

Deepwood Motte: This victory came not so much from tactical skill but from political maneuvering. Stannis listens to the good advice of Jon and enlists the Mountain Clans to his side, playing on their hate for the Ironborn and respect for Royal guests. Asha is scared out of the castle into the woods, where her inferior force is crushed by Stannis's. The battle isn't much to write home about (Ironborn fighting Northmen in the wolfswoof, c'mon) but the preparation leading up to it is.

So, considering his major defeat and the mitigating factors in some of his victories, I would call Stannis a "good" or "reliable" battle commander at the moment. I think his likely victory against Ramsay/the Freys will be what moves him into "greatness" territory

1. I agree no great tactics involved but there was at least some fighting. Donal Noye lost an arm. Whether this was a storm-attempt, castle sortie or mutiny. The details are unclear.

2. Stannis definitely made mistakes here. But there were unforseen wildcards like the Wildfire, Chain and Clansmen. Then incredibly fortuitous timing by the Lannister Tyrells. Had the Storm not delayed Stannis so long he'd have taken the city, had he been forced to wait he'd have had a fresh army to either withdraw or engage the Tyrell/Lannisters. The fact that he actually managed to salvage anything from the battle was a miracle.

3. The quality of his men and the surprise was a big factor. But there was also strategy in the way he used the Eastwatch NW to lure the Wildlings into breaking formation and then the three columns of heavy cavalry, which allowed success even when one was routed by Giants (a never before fought enemy). Then the very small number of infantry coming last to mop up.

Though overall I do agree with many of your points.

[Ramsay Gimp]

1. I agree no great tactics involved but there was at least some fighting. Donal Noye lost an arm. Whether this was a storm-attempt, castle sortie or mutiny. The details are unclear.

I had forgot about that detail as well. There must indeed have been some fighting, unless Donal was struck by an arrow and the wound began to rot or something. But if they held out against an attempt to breach the walls that does make it even more impressive

[Carter209]

I find it awesome to like Stannis as a character, since he's my favorite non-POV. He's an accomplished warrior and commander who by the latest figures is the best general still in Westeros, whether on land or at sea. He doesn't quit, not even when he's down to around 1500 men on Dragonstone. He actually legitimately gives a fucking rats ass about the safety of the realm, as exemplified by going to the Wall. He sees potential in those who would otherwise be cast out by someone else in his position(Davos, Jon).

I also believe that since he's been away from Mel for so long we will actually Stannis as he was before he met her. He's more than likely going to chop someone's head off soon, just like a Northman, and he's doing the same thing a Stark in Winterfell did merely 17 years ago: He's going to war to get some good old-fashioned revenge on those that did the Stark family wrong(albeit for different reasons).

Yet, I believe, 100%, that he's not going to make it out alive before the end of this story. All I can ask for is for him to go out in a blaze(or blizzard?) of glory fighting the enemy he sailed to the end of the world to fight. A bad-ass like Stannis Baratheon needs a bad-ass death, one in which he lives forever in song and legend.

STANNIS!!! STANNIS!!!

[Queen of Whores]

A detail I keep forgetting is that Stannis was only 17 when he held Storm's End in Robert's Rebellion. Shit, I'm 17 in a couple of months and I wouldn't have half the disincline or willpower he had. Robert really should have given Stannis the appropriate thanks for holding the castle, it was quite an intense job.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Queen of Whores, on 14 Jan 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

The funniest Stannis moment for me is definitely when the crow kept being noisy, so Stannis just turns and commands it to be quiet. The mental image of Stannis Baratheon getting pissed off at a crow and yelling at it is so damn hilarious.

As someone who said "fuck you" to a Snicker's mini the other day after dropping it. I can appreciate that too.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Does Barristan Selmy like Stannis?

He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne.

It's hard to tell when you're reading too much into things. Is he just saying that because he's angry at the Lannisters. Is this foreshadowing? Is there any chance he'll act as an mediator between Dany and Stannis?

[Carter209]

A detail I keep forgetting is that Stannis was only 17 when he held Storm's End in Robert's Rebellion. Shit, I'm 17 in a couple of months and I wouldn't have half the disincline or willpower he had. Robert really should have given Stannis the appropriate thanks for holding the castle, it was quite an intense job.

Not to derail just a smidge, but I have to admire not only Stannis' actions during the rebellion, but also Ned and Robert's. I'm older(22) than any of them would have been and I know I couldn't fight a war to overthrow a monarchical dynasty now. Marching off to war or holding onto a castle while under siege...yeah, I couldn't do that.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Does Barristan Selmy like Stannis?

It's hard to tell when you're reading too much into things. Is he just saying that because he's angry at the Lannisters. Is this foreshadowing? Is there any chance he'll act as an mediator between Dany and Stannis?

I really hope Barry the Bold survives and brings Stannis and Dany on Table. Two "Rightful" King and Queen.

[Rysler]

Huh. I don't really care for Stannis and I'm a bit surprised for all the love for him. Though I will compliment him for his relentlessness and determination, there is much and more I don't like about him. But that's just my opinion *shrug*

Though I am more or less on his side at the moment. Stannis over Lannisters and Greyjoys any day of the week.